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« Monday Net Post The Watercooler: Sony Daze »
Watercooler: Roger and Maria
Posted 10/09/2007 @ 12 :50 PM

Phpskqb7spm

Mornin', everyone. Well, it was a glorious three-day weekend at the farm in game-rich Andes. We had my niece's dog Lucy for the weekend and guests on Sunday. The only down-side was that the Orange Blossom, my Allis-Chalmers tractor (she's a mere three years younger than me, but I wouldn't dream of divulging her name; she is, after all a lady) quit on me in the pasture below the barn, making for a hectic session of cursing, rock-kicking, wrench-throwing, battery-frying, and a general panic about having to leave the old gal out in the open overnight (instead of in her quarters in the barn). Where was Codepoke when I needed him?

On Sunday, Luke and I went on an "adventure." We traced the river (the overflow outlet of the pond) down into a lower field. I stopped along the way to point out a burdock thistle. After studying its properties (Burdocks are the original velcro when it comes to your jeans or sweater), Luke turned to me and asked, "Daddy, how come  you know everything?"

Ah, such music to the ears. I looked at him gravely and replied, "You know, cowpuncher, I've often wondered that myself. . . "

Ha! I'm making the most of these days because I know they won't last forever.

We ambled through the warm sunshine to a cluster of deformed but fertile apple trees down in a nicely concealed draw, which also has a spring seep, making the entire area a deer magnet. We picked some apples off the tree, and I lay down and stretched out on my side in the sun. Luke sat on my hip and ate his apple, and we listened to the breeze whispering in the nearby pines.

We decided that this would be our "secret" spot. Luke spent an hour climbing the maze of boughs, and when he tired of that we followed a game trail uphill, and slowly circled back to the house. It was an afternoon I won't forget, although I'm sure he will, because at his age there is so much newness, and such a lack of awareness of what is - or isn't - transcendent, that real appreciation is still a foreign, irrelevant concept. What's not to like about life, when you're (almost) 5, besides certain vegetables?

I filed my latest ESPN post on Sunday night from the McDonald's in the nearby town of Delhi; it was a jarring experience, rushing out to get that done and then driving back slowly along the moonlit country roads a little after 11 PM. I did the 15 or so miles without passing another vehicle, with the windows down and cool night air rippling through the Jeep.

The Kremlin Cup is now underway, and it strikes me that this has quietly evolved into yet another premier dual-gender event - just like Tokyo last week. While many of us, along with tennis administrators, have been obsessing about the "big" dual gender events (Indian Wells, Maimi, the projected Beijing fall event that is now in the pipeline), tournaments a little lower on the scale of events have done some important spadework in the the evolution of the pro game. Carlos

Counting the Grand Slams and Masters-grade events, we now have 21 weeks (I count Indian Wells and Miami as two week events) during which the men and women play at the same site, at the same time. That's a lot more than I would have guessed. Now factor this into the equation: the deference given to Davis Cup and Fed Cup weeks takes another eight potential dual-gender weeks off the table. And then there is that de facto six week "off season" at year's end. All told, men and women pros are playing together rather than apart for a significantly greater number of possible weeks. And as this trend seems to be growing rather than diminishing, we are getting that many steps closer to what some of us think is the best-case scenario - a unified tour.

Oh, there are huge problems here - not least of which are the men's Masters events. For various reasons ranging from infrastructural limitations to calculated attempts at high visiblity, the ATP has carved out the Masters (with the exceptions of Indian Wells and Miami) as for men only. It's also true that during many of of the dual-gender weeks (like 's-Hertogenbosch [oh how maddening it is, trying to get that one spelled right!] or Kitzbuhel), other, single-gender tournaments are also played. But hey - it's a start.

In fact, it seems to me that some of these sub-Masters (or Tier 1) weeks have actually survived and perhaps flourished because, lacking the money or intrinsic appeal to draw a significant number of stars from either tour, recruiting from both tours potentially doubles the star power of those events. I have a funny feeling that the best tournament deals on earth, for fans, are to be had at places like  Estoril (I hope Miguel Seabra weighs in on this), New Haven (although being so near the US Open hurts), Moscow or Tokyo.

What does it all mean? At face value, this is an advance in pro-tennis parity or, if you prefer to think of it in these terms, gender equality. Years ago, tournaments like the Italian Open were loathe to host the men and women together (in some cases, purely because the logistics of hosting a dual -gender were prohibitive). Some of this was undoubtedly driven by prejudice (if only commerical prejudice) for or against either gender. Today, it seems to be swinging the other way. People, led by promoters and sponsors, seem hungry for dual-gender events.

Historically, though, this is a step back from the model established by the fledgling WTA, which was committed to establishing a successful, independent, women's circuit - Billie Jean King's dream. That vision was realized, with significant help from the cigarette-selling industry, via the Virginia Slims tour. Depending on your point-of-view, the remarkable success of the VS Tour was either a high-water mark for tennis (and, tangentially, something we'll just call "the women's movement"), or a high-water mark for the tournament sponsoring and marketing business - with a sponsor that only the most counter-intuitive of thinkers could have dreamed up. You could embrace whichever option you like from the Dickensian menu: It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. . .

Nevertheless, successful business models are a powerful recruiting tool, and the collapse of the VS Tour, and the failure of the WTA to replace it with anything nearly as professional, popular and fiscally viable, suggests that the VS Tour was an anomaly. The market spoke, and it rejected a full-on, all-women's tour, perhaps because there wasn't a single sponsor who had anything like the marketing horsepower of VS, perhaps also because supporting an all-women's tour simply because it was for women only became  less appealing to all concerned. Most likely, it was a combination of the two.

So the vacuum has been filled by these dual-gender, non-Grand Slam (or Masters) events. And if they continue to pull fans, sponsors and television, the trend is apt to continue. This approach could be especially valuable in ripening tennis markets (portions of Europe and much of Asia), and it seems to have intrinsic appeal in them, irregardless of whatever other larger, cultural gender issues are at play there. Note that these emerging events are unrestrained by the conventions of an established order that still drive tournaments in the the mature, perhaps even overripe markets -  Hamburg or Monte Carlo come to mind.

All this seems to me to be driven by the market - by the sponsors, promoters and fans, rather than the tours, which have not only been informal competitors, but also fixated for generations on establishing their independent "brands."  Etienne and Larry should spend a lot more time talking; so should Roger and Maria. This return to a mixed field is no the norm, especially when you consider order-of-importance., But it is a growing trend, and something that the Lords ought to recognize and capitalize on, while the opportunity exists. 

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Comments

Wow. I just slowed and savored your Andes reflections. I wish I had been there too. Praise the Lord you know how to enjoy that little 'Poke.

Pete, your writing about this and little 'Poke will be treasured later.

I think an independent women's tour was necessary early on just so that the women did not have to defer to the men's tour. I think the WTA could more than hold their own now. I personally am in favor of one tour.

"What's not to like about life, when you're (almost) 5, besides certain vegetables?"

Especially when he has a Daddy like you! :)

Wow, thanks for sharing that, Pete. What a perfect early fall idyll in the country. They grow up too quickly.

As for, "Daddy, how come you know everything?", just precious. Enjoy that while you can. I think my 14 year old would morph that a bit into, "Dad, do you know anything?" :)


From the perspective of a fan who attends two or three tournaments a year and mostly watches on television, I'm not particularly excited about a unified tour. Unless the tournaments all run two weeks I'm likely to see fewer matches in total. For example, there is a women's lower level tournament run simultaneously with the Legg Mason in Washington, DC. I rarely watch more than a few minutes of the women at DC since there are so many higher level men's matches available. But when there were separate women's tournaments in Baltimore and College Park I got three weeks of live pro tennis and saw more matches.

Similarly, someone pointed out last week in a post about the possibility of combining the men's and women's year end championships that if the two tours held their championship events together we would see fewer matches on TV than we do now with the events held in back to back weeks. There are only so many TV hours available in a day and usually a limited number available for tennis broadcasts. So if the tours held their events at the same time we would likely see half as many matches on TV in total as are available now.

I can understand the excitement of having both the men and the women at the same tournament, and certainly enjoy that at the slams and the other longer tournaments. But cramming men and women into the same site in the same week doesn't do anything for me.

Good point, even if it wasn't intentional, on Hamburg and Monte Carlo. If they combine with a women's event, suddenly they have a lot more power on both tours. If the ATP and WTA are sufficiently linked, equal pay becomes a much more immediate issue, and the powers that be have to deal with both high powered men and women. Also, the loss of a Serena is countered by the presence of a Nikolay...or someone...

Does anyone else have mixed feelings on this? Something about more mixed events just sounds so right. All of tennis, together, celebrating our great sport.

But then, in a men's Masters event, I drool over the qualies and first round matches almost as much as I do the later rounds. It's phenomenal stuff, from beginning to end.

The women's side, um, not so much.

Pete - that story with you and Luke is one of the sweetest things I have ever read
I am so glad that you are enjoying this time and sharing it with us

I just went over and read Pennsyltucky Steve Tignor's evocation of his junior days "Playing Ball: A Junior Moment" at Concrete Elbow. Read it if you haven't yet - fine piece of writing!

I really like combined events, as they give equal importance to the ATP and WTA. I think there should be more of them.

Pete-thanks for sharing that great moment with your son!

Pete, you're a genius!

You manage to make quality time with Luke analogous to the screwed-up system that tries (but largely fails) to mess up grand slams:

"We ambled through the warm sunshine to a cluster of deformed but fertile apple trees down in a nicely concealed draw."

Damn, you're good!

Back to reading hate mail from college football fans. Columnists have been very much under fire this year, for reasons you're probably aware of.

What interesting names the towns in your neck of the woods have, Pete. I'll never forget when, a few years ago, I read for the first time your mention of going to spend the weekend in "game rich Andes" and, misreading it as THE Andes, I thought that you must be quite the jetsetter. And now, Delhi!

I very much like the idea of more dual-gender events, and I'd even support the idea of a unufied tour as long as neither tour was dominated by the other.

Pete, I adored your fatherly musings. Wow! You MUST save this for the cowpoke. Such a treasure for him to read at a later time, dontcha think?

Did anyone see the match at Vienna between Novak Djokovic and Robby Ginepri? The match wasn't anything special, but.... Djokovic has started growing a BEARD!!! I was shocked. He looks... umm... still can't choose between "weird" and "interesting". :D Maybe he wants to look older, I just can't think of a reason why.

Maybe Pova digs the looks?

BTW, apperantly Andy Murray talked about gambling in tennis - I hope there isn't already a discussion elsewhere. He was saying he knows it happens, especially to guys who has to pay a lot of money to fly around tournament but barely get past the first round, and it's not hard to do, just hit a few double faults, etc. Apperantly everyone knows about it. And the ATP went on record they are calling him to discuss what he said.

I'm back from Aruba all! It was lovely. Did anyone manage to get tickets today for the Davis Cup final from the USTA member Pre-sale? I was told that they sold out quickly.

In keeping with today's post, I enjoy seeing the men and women play at the same venue.

Also Pete, I'll bet that you are compiling a great set of essays about your son that he'll treasure when he gets older.

Yo welcome back gvgirl!

nole's rearranged the magnetic filings.

http://tinyurl.com/2ujlfa

http://tinyurl.com/33463e

Snoo - I just asked on MNP for a picture of the beard , and here you have answered me
thanks
magnetic filings - a perfect description
what was the name of that toy that used those to make funny faces
that is exactly what this looks like

a really lame excuse for facial hair , indeed

Wooly willy!

he looks like he just gobbled up a really tasty scoooter crunch bar from the ice cream man. bless his little heart. I flove him but he's no flavio saretta.

Nole's beard is not a new thing, he sported exactly the same (a short goatee) for a few months last year. Looks very much like Meltzer.

wooly willy - that 's it !
New or not - it is a bad look for him , IMO
he has a really long thin face and a pointy chin , and that goatee just accentuates it
not at all becoming

last year it looked goofy, this year it looks like schmutz. melzer can pull it off cuz he's working the whole grubby thing.

beth didn't jake ever try to grow a beard? what do mothers say? "but you have such a nice face!"

i thought you guys were talking about canas sporting a beard.


maybe nole is preparing for winter?

Snoo - yeah - I know I sound like a mom. can't help it
Jake really never tried to grow a beard - not true exactly - he let things go for a surf trip but it was not really a beard because he is very blonde - so although there is facial hair , it is not going to make a full beard or even a respectable goatee -
Just looks kind of scruffy and unkempt ,and scratchy to the touch

Nitpicking express, and speaking of double doubles: "Irregardless" or just "regardless"?

And speaking of redundancies, I'll voice some dissent and say musings on "game-rich" Andes are boring as fall tennis...

Sign me up for a lifetime of fall tennis.

man juamadelpo now retired in his past 2 matches, what gives?

mmm, nitpicking and ice cold willy's beard. le sigh.

Vamos David I. Nalbandian!

I'm sorry, I can't help but think it gives Nole a kind of insidious look. All he needs now is a pointy tail.

"cursing, rock-kicking, wrench-throwing, battery-frying"

That's a fine way to treat a lady.

"I can't help but think it gives Nole a kind of insidious look. All he needs now is a pointy tail."

Quoted for truth.

I like the events the way they are. With one in Europe and another in Asia, you can have a better chance of watching one or the other, or both, since they are on at different times locally. As was posted earlier, dual-gender events limit the coverage for many players. Henin always gets ignored unless she's in the semis or playing an American. In Toronto, with no Americans or men, all five of her matches were televised.

With dual-gender events, the men get most of the coverage, the commentators yammer on about how all of the first-week women's matches suck (which is so untrue), and the top male player gets way too much of the coverage (and bores us all to tears).

Hey magyar, TWers

Don't have much time now, but I'll just say that the Estoril Open -- member of the first ATP calendar in 1990 -- definetely entered a new and better dimension with the adition of the women's event in 1998.

The tournament became some sort of a mini-slam, with more matches going on simultaneously in more courts, a very interesting qualifying weekend and a much busier final weekend; the atmosphere is just better and even a foray to the practice courts allows the public to learn something about, say, the bizarre training methods of Aravane Rezai's father...

The advent of the women's event was planned as a complement to the men's tournament -- the first year as a 75.000 ITF tournament, afterwards as a WTA Tour event; since there are no week slots for the women's event to be promoted to a higher Tier (besides the prohibitive price that move would cost), it still functions as a side-kick... but the public and the media adopted the event and, in some papers, the space dedicated to it is almost the same.

Besides, there is always the chance of watching young stars in a raw state. I'll never forget a Justine Hénin match that ended close to 11 pm with the little belgian cramping and severely injured but still scrambling and battling against spanish mooballer Angeles Montolio; Justine just lost that match, but didn't quit -- that match showed me that, in her heart, she is not a quiter so that's why I didn't crucify her after the infamous 2006 Aussie Open final.

I've also seen upclose the then unknown Lucie Safarova save 3 match-points against young prospect Michaella Krajicek and go on to win the tournament, Anke Huber returning to the titles after escaping a 1-5 deficit against Nathalie Dechy in the final, Svetlana Kuznetsova play the qualifying, Mirka Vavrinek before being know as Mrs Federer, the China Team modus operandi and many other stories... including the usual dynamics boy/girl of the combined events: the best question to ask in the interview room is «Do you like the view of the hotel?», and if a girl says «It's fabulous to see the Cascais Bay and the ocean» that's because she's at some guy's room in the men's official hotel because the women's official hotel is a bit further from the beach -- Lucie Safarova (Thomas Berdych) and Flavia Penetta (Carlos Moya) were caught that way, and there are a lot of other funny 'love' stories...

I know a lot of fans that almost exclusively follow the women's tournament and then go on to the WTA World forums and report on the new 'ovas and 'itches of the tour. And, of course, being a combined event, the efervescence is much higher, with female players sometimes modeling with male players in fashion shows on the VIP Lounge, etc etc...

To finish up, the organization went strongly after the only '500' slot available on the ATP clay court season pre-Roland Garros. But Barcelona's secular history, and IMG, and Nadal, and all the spaniards proves too much...

Now, I've got to go... but not without a question for you: does anyone recognize the girl pictured above?

But one thing is for sure: dual-gender events are made to be played outdoors... I don't think watching matches from dawn to dusk on a cavernous hall in Moscow has the same appeal...

Pete mentioned New Haven as a tournament that benefits from being dual-gender, and I would definitely agree. My husband and I chiefly follow the men's game, and we never attended the New Haven tournament in the period when it was women-only. But now that it has gone back to being dual-gender, we do attend--mainly to see the men's matches, but with the bonus of seeing some of the top women.
The women's field at New Haven is smaller but includes more top-10 players than the men's field. Are there other dual-gender tournaments where this is true? Miguel Sebrea's description of Estoril indicates that the women's event there is a lower-level event than the men's.

well - since its you asking miguel - i'd say - is it michelle larcher de brito?

but am agreed with you - somehow - dawn to dusk tennis (figuratively speaking) requires brite sunshine and a few GE's, imo!

Did you note that Estoril got quite a few 'most want to attend' votes on the MNP?

Djokovic looks like a junior Klingon from the original Star Trek series.

My goodness, that is one lame excuse for a goatee.

omg - you've hit it Andrew! the djoko is a klingon wanna be!

Pete - of course, I've been distracted but wanted to say - i just floved this. pitch perfect - brought me back to that feeling I had as a kid, wandering through the woods, bugs buzzing, exploring the world. Everything an adventure, with time just stretching out before me and yet existing entirely in that moment.

You may be surprised at what moments your little cowpoke remembers; even that young, he may pull this memory out 20 years from now and shock the hail out of you.

either way - i second gvgirls hope that you're saving these for luke to read when he's older. if he doesn't just flove them, guaranteed, any chickita he brings home will...

and yes - read and commented on Steve's post too...lovely snippets from the two of you! (Er, can I say lovely about your writing??!! lol!)

fashin comment here:

Safin looks like he has just woken up.
http://tinyurl.com/2vooe2

Davydenko looks much better in Black
http://tinyurl.com/3ytmmk
(the photo is from last year but you get the idea!)

and Blake definitely looks much better in sleeves. Gives me hope that one day, one day.....he might get rid of that head band too!
http://www.atptennis.com/5/photos/2007/250x180/blake_stockholm3.jpg

and some people just look great in anything:
http://tinyurl.com/2w9w7f

i think that's azarenka.

i guess dual-gender events are all well and good especially for the fan-attendees. but what about those who are just watching at home? indian wells and miami are mixed events but i only get coverage of the men's. does this mean negotiating for tv coverage is still done by the tours separately and not by the tournament? i guess, like somebody upthread mentioned, doubling the hours of coverage devoted to tennis by the networks isn't such an appealing prospective for them outside of the slams.

I agree that dual gender events will become more of the norm in the future. And that will eventually lead to the death of the WTA Tour. And mark my words - the women will be back to where they were circa 1970s, complaining about inequality in prize money.

I still think it is such a joke
1) women get equal prize money at the majors
2) not a single word is ever said about these dual gender events, Estoril, Tokyo, Acapulco, Indian Wells ( a Tier I event) where the women sometimes make only 1/6 as much as the men!!!!! Where is Billie Jean King, Larry, and Co.? These are events on the WTA Tour, where women playing same time as men, both playing best of three sets, yet prize money is so unequal and no one seems to care. We were all told how "elegant" Venus was in arguing for equal prize money at Wimbledon...yet it obviously didn't bother her to play in Tokyo (while all the other top women were in Stuttgart) in an event where women's prize money was less than 1/4 the men. (I guess her big fat guarantee made up for the inequality in prize money).
3) if the women are so equal, why can't they continue with their own tour, staging women's only events, and livingoff the success of that tour? Why glom on to the men at every opportunity?

I still wonder if the men are really going to dig one big uified tour. I understand it from a fan persepctive, and promoter viewpoint too. But the women are basically glomming onto the men. Indian Wells was a men's only event in the 1970s and 80's before the women played there. Cincinnati too - now a dual gender event. The women don't supprt their wn tournaments - just check out the draws at one of the women's biggest events, Family Circle Cup, and half of the top 10 routinely skip that event - first tournament to offer big prize money for the women.

Men will still get the premium court assignments, and if they don't, expect to hear about it. Ditto for TV coverage. It is a star driven sport, so it's possible there could be a cycle where the women may outshine the men. Looking at the horizon of women's tennis in the US, that won't happen for at least a decade.

Dual gender events? I don't like them. One ting that made the majors stand out was that they were 2 week, dual gender events. Now we have tournaments like Miami, known as the "5th major", or Indian Wells, the "6th major", or Cincinnati - wanting to be another "major", or Beijing - the new "Asian" major. There are 4 majors, and that's it. It's one thing to have a structure, and level of tournaments. But there are currently too many dual gender events in tennis, IMHO. Mixed in with regular one week, single sex events, there's a disconnect. Pro tennis appears disjointed if some weeks you have dual gender events and other weeks you don't; some weeks the women play in Dubai and the men play there the next week; the men playing in Austria one week and the men the following week; and separate year end tour championships.

The pro tennis tour has evolved a lot over the last 40 years. I still think it has a way to go.

ferrer has withdrawn from stockholm with a leg injury. hope it's not too serious.

For shame, Pete. Misinforming the readers again. The reason for more dual-gender events is not due to any failures on the part of the WTA. It was, in fact, the ATP that pursued the WTA for more such tourneys. The reason? TV ratings. Contrary to delusions in the press room, the WTA draws higher TV ratings in North America, Europe, and Asia. Just take a look at this summer's US Open Series telecasts on broadcast networks. The two Saturday telecasts drew the same ratings. The men's featured Andy Roddick, who is the ATP's top TV attraction in the U.S. The women's featured Svetlana Kuznetsova, who's not even close to being in the top 10 TV draws on the WTA. Yet Kuznetsova pulled in the same ratings as Roddick. The Cincy final, Federer vs. Blake, pulled a 0.9. A top-tier event, held in the U.S., featuring the world #1 vs a top-10 ranked American, on a broadcast network, on a Sunday (largest pool of available viewers for the week), drew a 0.9. I can't imagine any scenario where a U.S. women's Tier I final on a Sunday on a broadcast network could pull in numbers that low. The WTA could almost literally pull two players at random out of the draw, stick them in the final, and beat the Federer/Blake ratings. And the Indianapolis final couldn't even reach the 0.5 rating necessary to post on that week's chart.

The higher TV appeal of the women was one of the often-unmentioned factors in the decision by Wimbledon to award equal prize money. They looked at the ratings the two genders were pulling in, and the women's were higher. Even on the BBC, they saw that the share (% of available viewers tuned in) was higher for the women's finals, with the men's drawing a few more total viewers due solely to it being on Sunday. (Like here, in Europe the pool of aailable viewers is higher on Sunday.) Remember that interview with Clijsters when she was asked about the (then ongoing) campaign for equal prize money, and she made reference to being on the tour's TV committee and seeing "the numbers"? That's what she was talking about.

The WTA being more popular in Asia is hardly surprising, since the tour has had successful players from a number of countries in the region. Whether it's Japan (from the Sawamatsu sisters in the early 70, through Date and another Sawamatsu and the Japanese wave in the 90's, to Sugiyama), Indonesia (from the ambidextrous Lita Liem in the 70's through Basuki to Hsieh, Prakusya and Tedjakusuma), India (Mirza, Rao, the Uberoi sisters, the Bhambri sisters), Korea (Park, Cho), Taiwan/Taipei (Wang, Lee, Chi), Thailand (Tanasugarn), and the host of Chinese players today. It was Tanasugarn's success, particularly at Wimbledon (remember when she was routinely reaching the 4th round?) that led to a Hopman Cup invite, where she brought along an unknown countryman named Paradorn.

So it's not the WTA pursuing the ATP, but the other way around. And thus it isn't about any failure on the WTA's part. They've been steadily growing the tour's TV presence over the last several years, including a new extension (and increase)from Eurosport. It will be interesting to see if we finally get a consistent U.S. TV package when those current contracts expire and the rights can be pooled. But I will say, Larry Scott is dropping the ball a bit with allowing the combined events. Yes, he's insisting on equal money, but he should also insist on at least equal TV exposure (hours; after all, the WTA is the bigger draw) and, since weeks are at a premium on the WTA schedule (several years ago, Tier II slots were going for $5 mill), the WTA should get the Sunday final. Not only is it in the best interest of his own tour, but the sport overall. If they put their biggest viewer drawing card (the women) in their best available slot (Sunday), they'll draw better TV ratings, to the point where they'll be sit-up-and-take-notice ratings. At Wimbledon, the Williams/Bartoli final outdrew the Federer/Nadal final by over 20%. (Don't be fooled by NBC's practice of releasing the average ratings of the entire telecast as those of the "final".) Just imagine had the women's final been the Sunday final. We would have gone from the okay ratings of Fed/Nadal (3.0) to around a 5.0, give or take a couple of tenths. Those are the types of numbers that beat out all but a handful of sports events, and would squash any "tennis is dying" reports.

Regarding the sponsors, yeah it's too bad the WTA failed to replace the highly supportive Virginia Slims (whom the tennis media constantly harrassed them about) with, say, an electronics giant who would provide about $20 million a year or so in fees and services. And it's too bad they failed to supplement them with additional sponsorships from, say, a trade company or an appliancer maker, for example, so that they wouldn't be financially dependent on any one source. Why, a tour in such dire straights might be forced to accept a fantasy deal from a promotions firm, which could collapse because said firm discovered they couldn't draw in the TV money and sponsor dollars they expected from marketing the tour.

And I love the revisionism in the media talking about how the ATP and WTA have a history of animosity toward each other. Baloney! The ill will was generated from the ATP side. The men have long talked crap about the women, long before there even was an ATP. Even before Jack Kramer's proclamation that "dames don't belong on Centre Court". When the ATP announced their Wimbledon boycott over the Pilic incident, the WTA offered their support, and were rudely told by the ATP President "We don't need YOUR help." When the "new" ATP was setting up their tournament schedule for 1990, there were some conflicts with the established WTA schedule (events in the same city in the same week, etc.). A top WTA offical offered to fly in, at their own expense, and work out the conflicts for the good of both tours. They were refused, and the ATP leadership commented "we don't care about the WTA". Now, when they need the WTA, they suddenly care. If I had been the WTA, after decades of abuse, I would have told the ATP to **** off. Even after the ATP enacted a rule imposing fines on players who publicly verbally attack another ATP player, they let verbal attacks of the WTA and its players slide. It was only a few years ago, before Federer and Nadal ascended, that men's slam events routinely devolved into a morass of upsets, with high-ranked players often bowing out early, and killing the ratings for the big matches. When that happened, the players who were upset would then attack the WTA in their post-match pressers. Nary a reprimand from the ATP. Nor did they do anything when one of the Rochus brothers said Serena "looks like a horse". Nor when Sampras called Venus a liar at 2001 Indian Wells, rolling his eyes in disbelief and sarcastically commenting how her knee injury "just flared up". (Even though it was bandaged earlier in the week.) I must have missed the time when Sampras got his medical degree, which apparently enabled him to more thoroughly assess Venus' condition than the PT who conducted the functionality test on her knee (which the knee failed). Of course, when you're as "classy" as Mr. Sampras, the ATP also feels no need to reprimand you for calling a prominent player like Venus an idiot ("she doesn't even know where her serve is going"), or for berating yourself during a match for "playing like a woman".

Shame on you, Mr. Bodo, for distorting the facts in this post about the real reasons behind the rise in combined events. But then, weren't you the one who asserted, in a 1994 Tennis Magazine article, that when the new stadium (Ashe) opened, there wouldn't be an American woman "in the draw"? Not "in contention" or "among the seeds", but "in the draw", as in not among the top 104 in the world to gain direct entry. And we're supposed to believe your anti-WTA musings are somehow based in fact instead of your own biases? Given your track record, I hope you'll understand my skepticism.

Wow, I can't believe one of the Rochus brother would call Serena that kind of name, I mean like look in the mirror, he's like 5ft tall. I would love to see the combined event, but the guys need to have more respect. The Williamses sure had a lot to put up with. I always cheer for them as long as they're not playing Juju. And I used to think Sampras was such a nice guy, thank for enlighting me B. Go Justine!

B.,
Very interesting post especially I follow the WTA a little more closer than the ATP. Other than maybe Federer and Nadal, what ATP star can outdraw the Williams Sisters and Sharapova right now? On Justine, Larry Scott and his team should be marketing her more since she has been A+ tennis for the last 2 years. Making all Slam finals(winning RG) in 2006 followed by winning 8 out of 12 events(2 Slam wins-RG & USO).
On the Sunday at Cincy where Fed/Blake drew a 0.9, what did Justine/Jelena exciting 2 setter draw that took 2.5 hours in Toronto?

Wow...I just finished reading B.'s post.

Samantha...LOL! Thanks for dispelling the somber mood. I loved your singling out of the most important issue in B.'s post---the name-calling of Serena! HA! Well, look at it this way...yes, horses are large, but no creature is more beautiful... right?

I'll look forward to Pete's response, if there is one.

B.: I'd love to know the sources/see the raw data for those TV viewership figures, over a meaningfful period of time. One point of doubt - they don't coincide with my experience of attending Wimbledon in person, though - so, are TV audiences so radically different from the public who attend there in person?

Regarding boots on the ground (visitors to the AELTC):

Cost of debenture seats on Centre Court (per seat) for Wimbledon 2008:
Ladies' semi-finals day (second Thursday): £850
Men's semi-finals day (second Friday: £2,150
Ladies finals day (second Saturady): £1150
Men's finals day (second Sunday): £2,450.

That's a very big difference. Talking to the ticket suppliers (I am a frequent attendee at Wimbledon), it's clear that the men's days are more popular, hence the market generates higher ticket prices.

I also must point out that in the UK, apart from the Slams, typically Sky or Eurosport shows only the WTA or the ATP during mixed events - the TV coverage packages appear to be sold separately. Sky covers all of the Masters Series events for the ATP; Eurosport covers a mixture of ATP and WTA. In only a few cases is there coverage of both inn the same week at the same tournament - I think Eurosport showed some of the women's matches in Key Biscayne, while Sky had interactive coverage for the ATP.

B. - All I know is whenever I pick up a USA Today to read how the Grand Slam finals did in the ratings, the men's final is always the bigger number.

Whoo whoo, a worthy sequel to last week's "which gs final was fixed?" guessing game!

I'm gonna go with... Christophe!

sharapova loses first set vs azarenka 6-7(9-11).
makes life unnecessarily difficult for herself cause she had already 5-3 and 40-0 on her own serve plus a couple of set oints in the breaker.
almost 75 minutes played.

I 'm sorry I intended to say the combined height of both brothers is about five feet. The nerve. Go Serena.

Where is ptenisnet? his girleen (with TWO aces and a mere 6 dfs) has upset (?) crazy Patty in straights!

hmmm...i see JJ has lost the first round in bangkok 4-6 6-7 to yan.
but why fly from stuttgart to bangkok to zürich back to back to back anyway? and bangkok is just a friggin tier7 anyway. makes no sense even more so if you have already played about 25 tourneys this year.
grrrr.

on a completely unrelated note:
Go gerhard ertl!

No biz JJ won the first set 6-4 then lost the 2nd set tb then retired.

masha gets broken after having 40-0.
6-7 1-3. 91 minutes played.

oh. thanks Snoo Foo.
that is even worse.

sharpie at 6-7 1-4.

6-7 2-5.
end is near methinks. but i won´t miss this match once it is gone.

thank you snoo foo.

i give you 2008 French Open Champion Elena Dementieva.

azarenka breaks for the match, wins 7-6 6-2.

ugh, and now eurosport goes to vienna to show ferrero vs benneteau. not sure if i´m in the mood for more tennis.

And dancy in 3 at stockholm.

Biz were you watching it? was marikitas ok or what happened?

Dang I am moving to wherever they have this wondrous eurosport thingy.

B. You were clearly all fired up in your post,and while I am not going to dive deep into research into some of your claims re. viewership numbers etc., all I can tell you is that the market speaks for itself and if the WTA tour were such a superior draw, sponsors and fans would be flocking to it. They clearly are not. But more on that in a proper post a little later today.

One thing you wrote that is kind of dirty pool, right off the bat, is asserting that I claim that dual gender events are due to "failures" by the WTA Tour. I mildly resent that mis-characterization. All I did was point out that dual gender events are popular, and that they seem to fit today's market in ways that were not anticipated, and that this has been partly due to the struggles the WTA has experienced since the high-water mark of the Virginia Slims days.

But more later on that. . .

Bismarck,
How did Sharapova look today? Did Azarenka play above her level?

I heard it was a poor match by both of them.

Rosangel: Am I correct in assuming that the matches you cited on Centre Court at Wimbledon have been an automatic sellouts for years? This makes it possible for Wimby to charge whatever the heck they want for whatever tickets they wish for those seats and those days. This also allowed the Wimby bosses to price their tickets in a manner that just might support their past men-are-better-and-deserve-more-money public (and probably still private) stance.

Why didn't they insist on giving twice as much prize money in the past to the men if, as those ticket prices would indicate under NORMAL marketing situations, the men brought in twice as much revenue as the women? Shame on them ! LOL

It will be interesting to see Wimbledon's ticket pricing evolves over the next few years, now that there's no nonsense left to prove or support. Of course, I can see them sticking to the old price structure simply because of greed and/or "tradition."

Snoo Foo (i assume marikitas is sharapova?) and Schwab:

it was a poor match all around.
azarenka´s game plan seemed to be just to rally and bring everything back which sharapova gave her and maria made too many errors and looked too rusty overall in the end.
huge turning point was the way the first set played out. maria had it in the bag almost, 40-0 on her serve at 5-3. a couple of errors and DFs later she gets broken.
they both hold into the TB (where both try the serve DFs to confuse the opponent move), again maria has set points (at 6-5, 7-6, 8-7 if i remember correctly), but in the end always misses the chances.
azarenka takes her 2nd(?) set point after 1hour 15 minutes.
was quite sure that whoever wins the first set would win it in 2 at this point.
bottom line: sharapova not at her best at all, azarenka totally unimpressive.

ferrero has won the 1st set in a TB, but is now down 1-3 in the 2nd. not sure how his legs cope with the 3hour match vs chilly willy yesterday.

Ruth: The tickets for Wimbledon Centre Court or Court 1 debenture seats are allocated every year to some very privileged AELTC members, who can legally sell them on on the open market for the going rate, usually via agents. Those prices are not determined by Wimbledon, but by supply and demand. Agents would logically charge more for the women's days if they were certain of selling out at the higher prices.

I believe someone who enters the Wimbledon ballot for seats will pay pretty much the same price for any day, but he or she will have no control over the day that is allocated. As I prefer to select the days and courts that I attend, I pay the market price for debenture seats.

oh and sharapova had a big pink plaster(?) on her shoulder.

B, if your numbers are accurate for the Cincy final, I do find them surprising, but would need a larger sample to support the argument overall. (For a pair of events, you need to take into account competing television shows, nice weather...) On a different dichotomy, Americans vs. non, I recall seeing claims that Sharapova brought in numbers just as good as top-draw Americans, though then the immense interest in Serena in AO topped it easily, I believe. Slam finals rely so heavily on superstar drawing power that I'm not sure I would use them at all to prove a male-vs.-female point. A Williams is an immense draw, and nobody would dispute that.

At the same time, I'd like to see the order of the finals switched in alternating years, both for gender equality and to see the Sunday effect on ratings!

The ballot seats, BTW, are not debenture seats - sometimes the balloted seats are sold on by the original purchasers as well, for very hefty prices, but it's not supposed to occur under the terms and conditions of the tickets, so it's not done openly, as with the debenture seats.

Hi everyone! I've been away for awhile and I have a lot of catching up to do. My "tennis obsession break" was longer than I thought it would be. I've kept up on tournament wins, betting scandal and changes to come in 2009, but that's about it.

Pete, lovely stuff about your "adventure" with your son. What wonderful memories little Luke will have of "slow time" spent with his dad!

Really looking forward to Madrid ... I missed you guys!

Carlos Moya and Gustavo Kuerten are teaming up for doubles in Madrid? Now that's some doubles play I gotta see!

on the ratings debate:
i remember that a couple of years ago (around 2000) eurosport commentators a couple of times expressing that wta tennis had become more popular in the tv ratings than atp tennis (i assume they spoke about the ratings of eurosport).
no clue how it is today. are more people watching wta moscow or atp vienna on eurosport?

I think the men draw far more spectators than the women, and have for a while now, except during the height of the Williams sisters...would love to know if that's right. Rosangel's ticket price info during Wimby are very interesting.

If such a thing is true, I think the men should be paid more than the women. Supply and demand. Just like any other sport...nothing to do with sets played, or physical effort expended. :)

*ducks now*

Hey there - just popping in quick to say hello. I'm okay, I've been recuperating in a very lazy fashion - but I was out drinking Irish whiskey until the midnight pre-op cut-off. And I feel far better much faster than previous surgeries.

I have the same resting heart rate as Bjorn Borg. So, like Bjorn, I am literally a freak of nature, and my body can withstand amazing things.

They chucked me out of the hospital Monday, and now I'm about to go eat a huge helping of my mother's macaroni and cheese!

(I'll come back to read the post later, promise!)

Dang. Amelie lost AGAIN??

I mean, I can see losing in Beijing 'cause she's rusty, and even in Stuttgart because of the loaded field and maybe still rusty.

But going down in three sets to Zvonereva?? Come on. What's up with Amelie?

Hi Tina!
glad to hear you´re okay. wish you a speedy recovery furthermore.

Dual gender events
I do see the trend towards them. And that is good for attracting fans of all tennis to come to one place. For me, I given the choice of a men's match and a woman's - I will watch the men every time. Just better tennis , as far as I am concerned. At IW this year - I left when the women came on - the practice courts were much more interesting than early rounds of the women's event. I would not buy tickets to see the women play - but that is just my opinion.
And just in case you are wondering - I have seen the women play live. I have watched Jelena, Maria , Justine and the Williams Sisters. I felt that as a tennis fan I should give it a try. Never again. Just was not that interesting to watch .About 3 games into it, I found myself hoping the matches would end soon so that the men could come on the court. I know - I am the WTA's worst nightmare - but I could not help it. The product just looked like the undercard to me.
And - no it was not because I did not find them attractive , and wanted to see the hot men - I just could not get excited about the play .

tina of course, not Tina. ;)

Tina - so glad to hear that you are on the road to recovery
that is truly wonderful news . we have been thinking of you

Highpockets - glad to hear from you too . welcome back

woohoo! after saving three BPs in the first game of the third set, ferrero breaks the frenchman at love.

The Mosquito's coming alive ; )

and holds at love. nice. ten points in a row for the mosquito.

Those guys are grunting louder than Sharapova. They're really giving it all they've got.

Man, Ferro had three BPs there, but the Frenchman held on.
3-1 in the third.

*Ferrero

The Mosquito holds easily to 15
4-1

I had asked two friends of mine in England about Wimby seats, and they added that large corporations have snapped up what the exclusive club members had not. I wondered about those who queue overnight to get in: where are they granted seating? And how many seats are allocated to them? Also, is there a queue every night during the fortnight? Anybody?

Watching this Ferrero-Benneteau match and thinking about yesterday's discussion (Henin/Williams sisters on the ATP tour), I must say that I have no doubt that even an ordinary Top 100 ATP player like Benneteau would completely destroy the best WTA players, including Henin and the Williams sisters. Something like 6-1, 6-1. Perhaps Henin could get one or two more games on clay, but that's it.

anonymous, LOL
Would be amusing to watch Henin try to take on the Mosquito. Watching him play right now and I have to say there's no doubt he would totally blow her off the court.

Now here's an interesting one - prices of Category 1 tickets on Court Philippe Chatrier at Roland Garros next year, as quoted by one of London's reputable ticket agencies. These tickets are for good seats, but not courtside boxes, which are the more typical corporate hospitality seats.

Tuesday 3 June (women's QF day) £400
Wedenesday 4th June (men's QF day) £500
Thursday 5th June (women's SF day) £500
Friday 6th June (men's SF day) £550
Saturday 6th June (ladies final) £475
Sunday 8th June (men's final) £600.

Not as pronounced a difference between prices for seeing the men and the women, but still a difference. But the really interesting thing is that the women's semis day commands a higher market price price than finals day.

and the mosquito wins 7-6 1-6 6-2.
hope he has still something left in the tank for the next match.
3 hours yesterday, 2 hours today.

on women's finals day you're only getting to see one match (and chances are it will be a short one). if work weren't an obstacle, I'd rather go watch 4 qfs or 2 semis instead of one final, unless maybe it was my favoritest favoritest players, but even so.

Rosangel, very true about the difference in prices for women's finals versus semis, or quarters for that matter.
I went to the Stuttgart quarters and semis and payed 75 Euros for each day for a front row seat. For every other day including the final the price was 65 Euros.
I think it's because by the quarters the top women players are the only ones left and you get to watch four matches, thus the higher price.
The final is only one match and unfortunately very often a blow-out, if you know what I mean.

Excellent! Eurosport is showing Gonzo's match now : )

tomorrow live on eurosport:
radwanska - zvonareva
safina -chaka khan
djoko - zib
chela - melzer

but i will not watch the rerun of gonzo vs vanek they are now showing. have to see that my tennis obession doesn´t spin out of control ;)
long live the post USO season and its wonderful coverage.

Maplesugar: it's not as simple as that. Some of those debenture seats will be bought for corporate hospitality, others by individuals. I know a number of other people who buy debenture tickets for themselves. There are also plenty of overseas visitors who buy debenture seats, for example. Some will buy from the same agencies who sell to corporates; others use different channels.

I can say, from experience, that debenture prices drop on the day of the match, as sellers try to offload unsold tickets, but prices on the men's days drop proportionately less.

Regarding queuing, there are (I think) about 500 tickets available to the public for Centre Court and Court One for each day of Wimbledon - all except the last four days. Overnight queing is pretty much a necessity to be sure of the CC and/or Court 1 tickets. Also there are some tickets available on each day of action on Court Two.

The best bet is to go late afternoon after work and pick up a "resold for charity" ticket from someone who has left early, but then you can't guarantee what will be available. Often you get lucky, though.

Papo:
did i miss your report of your stuttgart experiences? ;)
can you recommend attending stuttgart?

Maplesugar,

The cool thing about Wimby is that the people who queue get really good seats -- they're generally in the seats closest to the court. (I queued for two days in 2006, and had seats in the third row of Centre Court and second row of Court 1.)

And yes, you can queue for almost every day of Wimbledon, though I believe that on SF and F days, the showcourts are pre-sale only. Ros can probably correct me if I'm wrong on that...

One person in the queue = one ticket. They take their queuing very seriously, which is actually kind of nice. I was never afraid that I'd queue alllll morning only to lose out when a bunch of people came and cut in ahead of me.

Hi Tina, welcome back. Great news to hear you are recovering so quickly!

Thank you, Rosangel and Ali C...That was very helpful.

I'd love to go to Wimbledon next year.

The scheduling in Moscow, for the men, seems weird. They have completed four R16 matches today, so that one of the QF match-ups is already known (PHM versus Serra), while Andy Murray and Evgeny Korolev have just completed the first set of their R32 match (to Murray, 6-2).

Maybe Murray requested a late start after his final in Metz on Sunday....

Bismarck, Stuttgart QF was great (4 matches with great players). The Porsche Arena is great, organization, the atmosphere ... everything was really very good. I can recommend.

yeah, the replacements for ferru and disco didn't play their 1st rds until today while Juan "Where the Wild Things Are" Monaco played his 1st rd in the same tournament on Sunday. I imagine they try, whenever possible, to give finalists as much time to recover as possible.

Tina, welcome back. I am glad to hear you are o.k.

thanks, FS.
have enjoyed watching stuttgart on tv ever since the late 90s (the fact that martina hingis won it 4 times was certainly a huge positive for me, hee!).
missed the coverage last year so this year was the first time i saw the new venue (porsche arena). looks snazzy. and i liked the "showy" new elements (light show and such when introducing the players).

when the draw next year is equally great i might attend it.

Bismarck,
It was so much fun! Not only do you get to enjoy the tennis matches, but the Stuttgart Volksfest is in full swing right next door ; )
Right after the tennis is finished you can just walk right over to the Volksfest. It’s the same parking lot for both events.

I bought my tickets by phone with my credit card a few days before going. I was able to ask for a front row seat and which section of the stadium I wanted to sit at. When I went to the stadium I just showed my ID at the ticket counter and they had my tickets waiting for me in an envelope. Most people I saw queuing for tickets were getting into long discussions about getting good seats, being able to sit next to each other, etc….

The stadium looks like a multipurpose stadium. Put a wrestling ring in the middle and they could just as easily have a World Wrestling Federation event. LOL But it looks very modern and they have excellent facilities.

I won’t get into the matches, since I’m sure almost everyone saw them. But one thing I found amusing was the school kids in their little cheerleader clubs assigned to each player like in Hamburg. In the Golovin/Bondarenko match the Golovin cheerleaders really earned their seats since they got on Bondarenko’s nerves so much, she kept giving them irritated glances. Especially after she got broken and they started singing “Na na na, na. Na na na, na. Hey hey hey good bye!” You should have seen the look she gave them. Yikes!

But it was a fun experience and I definitely recommend it. Maybe next time I’ll go to the Mercedes Cup (if it’s still called that in the future) to watch the ATP tennis. In Stuttgart butdifferent stadium ofcourse.

I am intrigued by the prices for seats at the 4 GS. At today's currency rates:
1$ = 0.48£ = 1.4E = 1.1AUS$

I know it would depend where you sat, but what might the cheapest seat for us penurious fans cost on Laver/PhC/CC/Ashe during a day session, say, in the first week?

thanks, Papo. sounds great.
yeah, the cannstatter wasn is in full flight during the stuttgart tourney.
and if nadal plays stuttgart-weißenhof next year i want to go there too.

there is something wrong in the currency rates, sophie.

Not surprise at the Sharapova defeat,never bought into the media hype but wow on Jelena, this is a girl who would play in Iraq if they let her. Does anyone know why she retired? I hope she's not injured and just getting rest which she needs. And did Venus win?

Samantha:
JJ retired due to heat illness. apparently it was very hot with huge humidity in bangkok. the change from rather cold stuttgart climate into this hot n wet might have been too taxing for her.
venus didn´t win, the humidity became rain during her match. she leads 6-2 4-1.

Hey Bismarck, did you make it to Oktoberfest this year? That was another great time : )
Plenty of things to do in Deutschland.

unfortunately not, Papo. and i have never been there as of now. wanted to go there this year, but problems with/at uni prevented it.
hoping for next year. as i have relatives in munich i have even more of a reason to visit the city.
how many "Mass" beer did you drink? ;) they sold a new record this year...

Bismarck, what's wrong with the currency rates? Have I copied them off today's list incorrectly?

Sophie: re prices at U.S. Open first week: I checked the U.S. Open website but couldn't find any prices listed either for 2007 or for 2008.
Our grounds passes (allowing access to the other show courts) were about $40-$45 for Wednesday of the first week. I believe the Ashe tickets for the same day were about $60-$65. Ashe tickets also give you admission to the other show courts, which is not necessarily the case for Center Courts at other Slams. Therefore prices may not be exactly comparable.

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