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« The Deuce Club, 3.20 PacLife CC/Scout Report - Day 11 »
Good Girls Don't. . .
Posted 03/21/2008 @ 5 :00 AM

Phpv8girvpm_2

Ana Ivanovic is an awfully nice girl, but I think she deserves to be written about anyway.

So I made a point of getting out to the Pacific Life Open early today, because Ivanovic was first on, playing Vera Zvonareva. The stadium looked like a bowl of hard candies that had been thoroughly picked over, with a handful of people here, another there. If you want to know the degree to which woman have sold their souls to tennis, ponder this: it's a sport in which two or more women have no problem being seen at the big event in the same dress. And get this - they wear the same dress in public for two, three, five days in a row!

You may wonder, Are these really women as we know them?

Well, all I can say is that you'd have to be a truly hard case to mistake Ivanovic, dressed in that sleek, understated salmon-colored number by Adidas, for, oh, a lemur, or a breadbox. I can actually feel myself cringing but I can't stop my fingers from writing this next three words. .  .She's all woman!

But let's move on.

Ivanovic was on fire at the start. She broke Zvonareva immediately, if not sooner, and I already found myself wondering how I ought write about her, how I ought to approach this issue of her "niceness." Who did she remind me of, what does she represent? The closest I could come was deciding that if I tried to picture a tennis player as the girl in that great Tom Petty song, Free Fallin', it would be Ana Ivanovic. And I'll be danged if, on the very next changeover, the song didn't come pouring out of the stadium loudspeakers. I ask you - what are the chances?

Meanwhile, Miss Nice was pounding away at Zvonareva with the kind of gusto that's hard to equate with any definition of "nice." And this is no mean feat. You know what usually happens to "good girls" in tennis. They blow 6-1,5-4,40-love leads to lose matches, then press conferences that put to shame that stinko Kevin Costner movie, Waterworld. They get asked to be part of a Maria Sharapova photo shoot, and get put in charge of making sure that the ice in La Sharapova's diet cola is cubes, not crushed. They end up being the doubles partners and BFFs of positively horrible people who win lots of big singles titles, make gazillions of dollars, fire shots at ballkids' heads, and beg off attending their doubles partners weddings.

You know what they say: Good girls don't. . . They don't end up seeded no. 1 at events as big as the PacLife. On the rare occassions that they do, you have tennis's version of a life-affirming experience.

It was like that for me yesterday, and I was immediately struck by the degree to which Ivanovic's habits, mannerisms, and actual game seem natural extensions of her person. Her tennis is understated and effective, well-mannered and attractive, classically pretty rather than exotically alluring. Ivanovic is poised and disciplined, without appearing at all rigid or stiff (in fact,one of the best features of her game is the way she retains her knee bend and stays appropriately low through her stroke). As Pete Sampras has said of Roger Federer, without the obvious double entendre that applies here, "(S)he's easy on the eyes. . ."

Ana_2 I was paying particular attention to Ana's serve, and how well she moves it around and otherwise employs it to keep opponents off balance. Ivanovic doesn't rain down horror on her opponents; it's more like a gentle, killing shower. Although she's cranked serves that broke the magical (for the WTA) 120 MPH barrier, these days she mixes her deliveries with pleasing ease and efficiency. As her coach Sven Groeneveld told me when we were chatting after the match, "Ana has a very natural game; she's basically a relaxed player who is inside of her game and herself almost all the time."

"Balance" is the word that comes to mind, time after time, when I contemplate Ivanovic. She plays with nary a grunt, except for when it's justified by the flow of play (imagine that!).  Even her exhortations and celebrations are modest, almost chaste. Shortly after she won the first set, 6-1, she celebrated a particulary good shot with the obligatory clenched fist, although it seemed half-hearted - more suited to safely transporting a captive cricket to safety than further menacing an already punch-drunk opponent.

Think that analogy is a strech? The other night, on Stadium 3, Ivanovic was embroiled in a bitter battle with Francesa Schiavone. Ivanovic was blitzed in the first set,6-2. The second set was tense, and close. Near the end of it, the sky filled with a blizzard of grasshoppers, which soon began dropping to the court. A number of times, Ivanovic escorted a bug to the sideline with the frame of her racket.

Good girls don't. . . stomp insects into a mess of green goo.

Ivanovic quit her Wilson racket not long ago,and now plays with a Yonex. One immediate benefit of the switch, according to Groeneveld, was an improvement in a shot Ivanovic has been working on with special focus lately, her backhand. It's a sweet shot now; the swing is deep and the follow through long. When she has enough time to get her weight behind it, she looks almost like a hammer thrower.

"Come on!" she cried, after making a winner. But even that was less outburst than reminder. She said  it with a slight hiss, as if she were afraid to be heard and accused of being rude. Good girls don't. . . make a scene, draw attention to themselves, or get in the faces of girls like Zvonareva, who's been known to break down in tears on the court.

All this might be enough to make you wonder if Ana doesn't harbor some evil twin, or doesn't spend her down time behind closed doors, chortling maniacally as she sticks pins into a Sharapova doll. But Tom Tebbutt, the enterpising tennis correspondent for Canada's Globe and Mail, has been hanging around the ballboys to get their take on the players, and he brings good tidings.  It turns out that Ivanovic is a big hit with ballkids, too. When he informed her that she had scored well in the unofficial  popularity contest, Ivanovic said:

"Well, I saw in some matches players can be really nasty to the ball kids about the towel or balls and get upset. But you know, at the end of the day they are just kids, and nervous, too. Everybody's watching them, and maybe saying, 'Don't drop the balls.' You know, you have to realize that, so I really try to be nice to them and not get upset."

Sheesh. This girl better watch it. She may have to pitch a puppy into a trash compacter just to mollify the cynics and misanthropes.

Vera This was not a great day for Zvonareva (the weather in her head is often pure Seattle), who was broken with mortifying predictability in the ninth game of the second set. Then Ivanovic served it out with a love game. Zvonareva has an appealing game and a load of athleticism (she's one of those low-slung players who moves like a crab). And unlike so many of her WTA peers, she's perfectly willing to smack a short ball to the corner and rush the net.

But Zvonareva is inconsistent, prone to corrosive self-doubts and breakdowns. It's like her game is a mathematical equation, meant to be explained through a long series of calculations. Only some bonehead inadvertently substituted a 6 for an 8 very early in the process, so the final result is way, way off what you rightfully expect, given the potential with which you're working.

Ivanovic's own equation worked out beautifully today, as it usually does. And if we know one thing, it's that nice girls don't. . . win tennis matches on the basis of their "Nicenesss." In all fairness to the less perfect citizens of Tennisworld, they also don't win them on the basis of "Not Niceness." The top players flourish because, in addition to whatever personal qualities or shortcomings they harbor, they work hard, and dot all the i's and cross all the t's.

I can see where Ivanovic's well-documented, worldwide popularity and obvious sex appeal, combined with her ability make the game look like an agreeable exercise, rather than a war, or personal vendetta, might create the impression that for her, tennis is a way of treading water between photo shoots. Nothing could be further from the truth. Ivanovic not only works hard, she has an impressive,long-term career strategy, concocted with the help of Groneveld and her personal trainer, Scott Burns, a lean, tanned Aussie who's so intense and focused on his mission that he doesn't usually speak to the press. These folks are serious. Trust me.

At Doha, early this year, Ivanovic badly sprained an ankle during her second round match, causing her to withdraw from the event. The night that she sustained her injury, Burns woke up every hour on the hour to massage and change the ice on Ivanovic's ankle. Burns got her sufficently put together for the next week's event in Dubai, where she lost just four games to Nicole Vaidisova before falling to Elena Dementieva (who would go on to win the event).

Intensely Dedicated + Attractive + Technically Sound + Sweetly Mannered = Immensely Popular + Hugely Successful.

That's a rare formula in tennis. Would that it always worked out that way.

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Comments

Ivanovic versus Sharapova would be another great final to watch, and not just for the tennis, if you know what I mean.

First! (with a name)

Nice article.

I really like her during the FO run last year. I hope she stops chocking in finals now.

I love Anna's consistency...shes always in the last rounds of big events almost all the time now...shes strong mentally as well...she'll surely win a slam soon.

I keep hearing how nice and sweet she is...Funny thing it doesnt show on court...she doesnt seem sorry to make other girls cry...

Thank you for your report. Ana is a great competitor. Hope she has her mental strengths in order when she plays Jelena.

Last year, as I walked the site at the Legg Mason Classic, Marat Safin and a horde of security came toward me. Spectators, just like me, spotted him, nudged their friends. You could read their lips... "Hey, that's Safin." He's hard to miss, being so tall. The way he lumbers along is unmistakable. He's even harder to miss when not wearing a shirt, with a wisp of sweat on his skin reflected by humid air and weak sunlight. I wanted his autograph as badly as the middle-aged father of two teens, the two young women out for an afternoon, and a pack of juniors who really knew Safin's tennis records. I got up close... "Marat, may I have your autograph?" He slowed, turned, and my left pinky finger brushed his skin. "Of course you can," he said, in a deep sincere way. That was that. My encounter with my tennis hero. A man of means by no means, King of my Tennis Heart.

We like to watch them for their tennis, their human characteristics, their physical attributes... It's all good. I'm only sad because Marat will be gone soon. I must look in other directions, but that won't be difficult.

very insightful article, Pete.
Ana is one of the very few players I care for in the WTA, more for her personality than her style. she's young and can improve many aspects in her game. Her win over Venus in AO must have given her a huge mental boost. I'm still not sure about when her breakthrough and first slam will come but I'm sure that it's a question of when and not if.

What a beauty! Inside and out. I don't blame you guys for salivating/gushing over her, not one bit. Plus she has game!

Dear Pet, thank you very much for the great article. If I can notice, you like to write about Serbs player, who doesn’t these days (or maybe I read only those).
Ana is very appealing person with great personality, always open for interviews. I heard a story about local Serbian reporter who was so persistent to get interview that her father invited him to visit them early in the morning before her trip to the next tournament. It was very early in the morning; she was wearing pajamas, and she was still sweet and adorable.
It will be so interesting to see the forthcoming match: Ana vs Jelena. Looking forward it.
Regards from Belgrade.

I don't see what's so impressive about her coach/ankle story.

Who wouldn't want to stay up all night touching Ana's legs ?!

Ana has such a pure game, I love to watch her and her powerful ground strokes.

I still think Maria is much more talented though. Ana still lacks that something that wins you grand slams. She still plays a little soft. lol

MrsSanta's going to love this one. :)

great entry Pete. You're on a roll. Havin' fun in IW? I like that you're bringing entries about the UNusual suspects!

Now this is a nice picture to start the day with!
My favorite shots of Ana's are her forehand (smooth and powerful) and her serve.

Who else has Groeneveld worked with? I recall him working with Stich during the mid-1990s to tune up his forehand, and shortly afterwards he reached the French Open final in 1996.

sherlock, that's the first thing that came to my mind, too. hehe. :)

Sam,
I figured that you would like Pete's work today but her run at IW will come to an end tonight.

Ana's serve has not been dominant as I thought but her footwork/movement has vastly improved thus her rise into the Top 5. And of course, that FH is still producing the winners.

Sherlock
Why?

It's hard to believe that anyone takes any woman's "sports" seriously especially tennis. Watching woman's tennis is as exciting as waiting for ice to melt or water to boil. If it wasn't for the mandatory politically correct hype of the media, woman's "sports" would have zero popularity. The media just pushes and pushes these so-called sporting events to a point where the public have to watch them because you must give the little darlings equal time.

Somehow I liked the tomboyish Ivanovic who beat up Mauresmo at Roland Garros more than the current version.
Same game, cuteness and ankles with half the sugar.

about the post above mine by nameless. i dont get u at all. womens sports is great and im sure everybody except you take them seriously. oh yea i think ur some sort of male chauvinist pig >=|

I love ana ivanovic

great article! lookin forward to more from ya

ivanovic is the best =D

she may/probably would prove me wrong soon, but i still think she's too nice to win grand slams. not ruthless enough, not enough killer.

to win the majors you have to be at least a little bit evil - you know, have some desire to vanquish your opponent, blast them away, stomp them flat.

maybe if she were to start stomping grasshoppers..

(and i'm just being facetious here. mostly.)

it's okay, fifteenlove. You're among friends. Mornin' everyone, just dropped in to say Hi. . .

I may be in the minority here, but I'm a Jankovic man.
Here's to hoping that Jelena can muster up the goods.

Excellent Article Pete - your comments are very insightful.

I have always been stuck at how relaxed Ana looks on the court and her short making is relaxed and elegant, something like Federer's, and is so easy on the eyes. I think she's a great player. I hope she can win more slams.

For some reason - I don't find her attractive. But that's just me :P

fifteenlove: Not sure about the too nice part - I think a player can be nice off court but be a very competitive SOB on the court. As I told Schwab at the beginning of the year, I think Ana is about a year away from winning a Slam. There are some things in her game that need work, and she needs more time to mature as a competitor.

I find that with ana and the wta...don't think, it can only hurt the ballclub...as in just watch, that will work best. Save the cerebral cortex activity for the men's game, one has to specialize, so I will just say I concur with everything you say pete, sounds good to me, I cannot quibble...keep up the good posts from IW and thanks for the photos.

...hmmm, I meant I will specialize and outsource the thinking part to you for ana and the ladies...

Wow that was a sweet article!Ana is way too sweet..aww luv her loads!

Nice mix of character reflection and insider analysis here, Pete. What a dedicated trainer. I hope they're all that great at the top level... Also interesting to hear about such 'instant' improvement from Wilson to Yonex. Certainly beats Blake's infamous problem of having to play with a racquet emblazoned with a new sponsor's logo.

hi pete. loved your article, as always.

yeah sam, like fed, or nadal, ain't it. nice off court, ruthless on it.

however, they're not excessively nice, like ana seems to be in my impression, from media reports and her games (esp in the ao final). clijsters kind of comes to mind here.

gonzalez also comes to mind (remember at last year's AO where he made sure that the ballboy did not kill a fly bothering him and released it among the bushes instead?). though, yes i know, gonzalez's game on the men's tour probably isn't equivalent to ana's on the women's -- ana's game probably has a greater potential of winning her grandslams than gonzalez's.

like i said she may/probably would prove me wrong soon. after all, she's already come close to being a grand slam winner, twice. and she has years ahead.

*Who did she remind me of, what does she represent?*

Kim Clijsters. She's the hotter than a 5 alarm fire version but just as mind numbingly NICE. Someone please clone Jennifer Capriati already.

Abbey, great minds and all. :)

Ptenis, doesn't MrsSanta refer to Ana as Kimmy redux? :)

MrsSanta: It would be a better comparison if her dad accused another player of doping after she got her butt kicked in a Slam final by them.

And if she happens to meet Masha in the final I hope the jolly blonde giant crushes her. Badly. As in Juju molesting Kimmy in the finals of a slam badly.

Boo Sherlock and Abbey.

LOL MrsSanta! Nice to see you breaking out the haterade again - it's been a while. ;-)

Aw, I miss Jenn-Jenn. The days of she and Monica battling in the USO semis were scrumptious indeed.

Sam, good point. :) Are Ana's parents even in the picture?

"jolly blonde giant"...hee!

MrsSanta, it'll never come to that though. Kuzzie, being the clutch performer she is, will dispatch Maria with ease today.

Hey, why did I get booed? :)

lol. why is mrssanta so anti-ana?

That's worse Sam. At least Kimmy had a weird Dad. Anna is the NICE descendant of a long line of REALLY NICE people.

And a person with a toss that horrific should not be called technically sound.

She had a bad time at Santa Ana once and ever since there is this subliminal aversion.

So true Sam. A day without a little 'Claus-a-witz' tough no-love is like a day without sunshine. Filtered through acid rain.

(hmmm...its moments like these that I doubt my emoticon-less commitment, as I don't want it to end up on the edlessly burning pyre of bodies in Mrs. S's backyard of people who are "dead to me." Again.)

Maybe Anna I keeps voodoo dolls of the other players so she can be nice AND destroy them.

****slinks back to CC thread.***

(Although, Mrs. S - if you'd care to have a look at the Fed pics that Or posted a link to toward the end of Day 10 thread and take a gander at the rebirth of the Federesque top knot, I'd love to hear your views. Really. REALLY)

if ana and maria get to the final,sharapova will kill ana.to beat maria you have to move really well and expect the errors and ana realy doesn't move well enough or you have to hit hard than sharapova wich ana will never do.when sharapova is at her best only henin and willians can give her trouble.

Re: MrsSanta

There's a thin line between love and hate.

Notice how Ana raises her wrist up to her mouth between points? Whenever I see this I am positive she's cursing under her breath...you can't be that nice all the time.

Given Pete's comments about the lovely Miss Ivanovic and her sweet disposition-if she was to hook up with a men's player-ala Conners and Chrissy, who currently on the tour would be a suitable match for her either with a comparable or contrasting personality????????????????

Jill,

How about Andy Murray?

Pete, nicely done as usual, but in fact way better 'cause the writing's top shelf.

"Zvonareva (the weather in her head is often pure Seattle)"

"But Zvonareva is inconsistent... It's like her game is a mathematical equation, meant to be explained through a long series of calculations. Only some bonehead inadvertently substituted a 6 for an 8 very early in the process"

For that and more, thanks.

So true Tennis Fan, so true...

Great article Pete, really enjoyed it.

About that ruthlessness thing - I get the impression that it does not necessary exclude niceness. It just is something to work on. At the FO last year, she got first glimpse of the pressure and emotions that come with gs finals, and at the AO improvement was evident; all dough she is not there yet. That does not mean that she will win it if she plays her best, but eventually... She looks to be on the right direction.

no name - beat it to the nole at leno post; every decent poster has abandoned it...

Just because Sherlock. Feel free to bet your retirement savings and kid's college fund on my beloved Kuzzy winning today. The one match of hers I saw involved her forehand causing GBH to several audience members.

Pete-avid reader, first-time poster. This was an amazingly well-written AND entertaining article to read! I loved your take on Zvonareva. I hope this piece is enough to get you the official invite to Ana's summer garden party.

Joel wrote:

"about the post above mine by nameless. i dont get u at all. womens sports is great and im sure everybody except you take them seriously. oh yea i think ur some sort of male chauvinist pig"

Wow! Must have really hit a nerve. Resorting to the old "male chauvinist pig" ploy. Surely you can do better then that. Feminists have had 45 years of practice at name calling and putting down men and that's the best you can come up with. Shame.

Well, when it comes to a Connors/Evert type match-up, how gorgeous would the pairing of Ana with Mario Ancic be? Plus, maybe that would get rid of the last fading remnants of Serb/Croat animosity.

There are several players who come to my mind as great champions who have a lot of decency and natural class but do not ever let it interfere with their professional intentions oncourt. I think of Roger, Rafa, and Monica Seles. No doubt we can name others, but these three are at the forefront when I think of gracious competitors. They will always credit their opponents' abilities, no matter how easily and routinely they just slaughtered them oncourt. At the same time, they are refreshingly frank about their shortcomings as well as strengths and they always seek to better themselves, professionally and privately. It's easy to be self-centered and rude to others in such a competitive solo sport; It's remarkable when prominent people surrounded by strangers who all clamor for a piece of them can remain centered, polite, and respectful, while concentrating on preparing and playing spectacular tennis.

Another insightful and enjoyable article. I love Ana and her personality. Roger has proved that you can be a very nice, laid back person and win grandslams and more and I am sure that Ana will win a few in the coming years. Anyone who is nice to ballkids and grasshoppers get my vote every time :)-

I christen no name poster Bobby Riggs. I remember he was given a pig just before the Billie Jean match. Very funny. This was Riggs' stick. A boring tennis match by great spectacle. That seemed to have some influence over perception about women at the time.

However, if you hate women's sports so much why did you click on and read this article. I think you are MrsSanta on a wider scale.

Women games are different from men's by nature but no less compelling when you have equally matched and skilled compeititors.

Women for eons were not encourged in sports nor were there many opportunities available to them. And any woman who wanted to competete were subject worse verbal abuse then you have been subject to. Many women avoid sports because of the mentality you display. Sometimes watching ice melt or water boil can be exciting, its all how you look at it. If you go to Alaska and see a glacier (a big piece of ice) melt, it is pretty impressive. Just think that water, steam and ice are all the same substance just in different forms and each have unique and amazing properites. The world and the differences can be amazing.

However, as with the women's movement, civil rights and other social changes sometimes you have to 'unfreeze' persons with your mentality. It can be a very boring and tedious process so maybe they need to spice it up a bit (media hype) to make it more exciting.

I assume you are a man (or a self-hating female) do you have sister or daughter that you care about? (I know if you have a wife you don't like her very much) Would you like them to have the opportunity to play sports? If you did you would think differently about women's sports.

As long as you are not writing about sports then I respect your difference of opinion.

LW - you have stated very well what I was thinking. thank you.

nameless,

if you have no interest in women's tennis, kindly leave this site.
i'd also advise you to not go to any other sites you have no interest in.

Well, there, "nameless" perhaps if you're going to make that argument you ought to find a women's sport which, unlike the WTA tour, is not subject (and that's 100% subject, mind you) to the same forces of competitive capitalism which apply to men's sports.

The attention garnered by the WTA and its players is not any sort of affirmative action program run by the media. In case you haven't noticed, the independent tournament directors who promote both the ATP and WTA tour tournamets basically do so to make money.

hi pete! what a beautiful picture of ana. talk about natural beauty being exuded there! nice to hear you writing about your crush on the nice girl of tennis.

during the AO, though, i remember some posters did not particularly like her c'mons! :)

matt55 @ 9.11: loved your comment! (I don't see what's so impressive about her coach/ankle story. Who wouldn't want to stay up all night touching Ana's legs ?!)

My fav. player to watch is no question, Dani Hantuchova. Her backhand is just SO GOOD! I watched her play doubles at the US Open with Chanda Rubin in 2002 and she is a spectacular doubles player.

If she had the same kind of strategies with her singles game and mental toughness on the court, I think this post would be about Hantuchova and the virtues of Slovakia's WTA champion (which has never happenned outside this tournament, her favorite by far), rather than the sweet Serbian with the killer instinct and mega results at the big bucks tournaments.

The book on these ladies has already been written. It's the WTA's version of why one professional is vastly better than the other. One of them had some nice results but never made greatness a habit. The other one smiled and delivered on it.

I like Zvonareva's game as much as any WTA player out there - her shots are pretty solid and she is a great athlete, kind of like Capriati but more compact. Master Bodo's description of her mental state on the court, is as close to 100 percent accurate as one will get. Though I dont like to make predictions...I dont think Zvonareva will post a grand slam final or win in her career.

@nameless
it is your absolute right not to be interested in women's tennis but for the sake of us that think differently, please refrain yourself from commenting articles like this unless you have something constructive to say.
there is plenty of men's tennis so you better spend your energy there.


altough ana is by far my favorite female player, i agree with one of the previous posts: ana is missing something in order to win big tournaments.

Tennis Fan, I think you are missing MrsSanta completely. She's fantastic.

Speaking of, I wouldn't bet the money in my daughter's piggy bank on Kuzzy. :) I'd love to see her pull it off, of course, but just don't see it happening.

i think ana is too nice to have the killer instinct of maria and justine.

she'll have to adopt the "no more miss nice girl" attitude to start beating up on those two.

hi everyone. my first time in here

hi

Welcome, bloomnbliss. :) Cool nick.

Welcome, bloomnbliss! Nice moniker on the second day of spring.

Thanx Sherlock. I have been long been a regular visitor here and enjoy the postings but finally broke the inertia of not creating a handle. It's really great in here and I look forward to exchanging views about tennis with others

Tennis Fan stop imagining you have some special insight into how I think.You don't.

Thanx too, Sam

fedexfan is such a big dork!!!!

Sherlock:

I was just writing that if Mrs Santa was being sarcastic then I withdraw my comments. However, I just got blasted by Mrs. Claws herself.

As far as Ana missing something, and as Mrs. Claws has pointed out I don't have special insight into how anyone thinks, I have read some of Ana's comments after matches. She says she sometimes loses concentration and she seems to feel the emotion of the moment deeply. We also forget how young she is. She seems to have a handle on it and is trying everything to solve these issues for big matches. I think it is only a matter of time. She has stated her ambition is to be number one. While she did not win the AO she did show flashes of brillance. She didn't execute drop shot well and she lost concentration after that and you can't do that against a Sharapova for more than 10 seconds. If she plays Sharapova again at IW we will be able to see if she continues on the right track. If she didn't have the 'killer' instict, I don't think she would be at the top of the game right now. She just needs to take the final step. Maybe a good see-saw match against a top player in which she ultimately previals will do it. Although I can't explain why, I see her doing it this year, if not at IW then French or Wimbeldon. Miami should be a great test with the Williams' and Henin there. Only time will tell.

Peter, could you please find out why Erlich and Ram did not play the Dubai tournament? Thanks.

Tennisfan,

Let me provide a counter of sorts. If I choose to follow the Spanish/English football league instead of, let's say, the Burmese football league (because the latter stinks), does that make me a less Burma-sensitive person ? Should one watch sports to establish their political credentials ?

Burmese football may very well have the same sort of competitive zeal and compelling drama that the Premier League has. The action just happens at a lower baseline, that's all. For a person watching both, one league just appears to be a mickey-mouse version of the other.

I am a casual tennis observer. However, it appears to me that the men at the top have a much more well-rounded game in general than the women do (Justine aside). This makes men's tennis a far more enjoyable sport to watch. Even if you take Roger out of the mix, Rafa/Nalbandian/Safin/Gasquet etc. are truly nice to watch. It isn't because they are men; it is because their overall tennis
skills are far superior.

I completely fail to see such depth on the women's side, and I don't think the reason is chauvinism.

Think we should save calling Ana the nice champion until she wins a GS and gets scrutinized for not winning every match- then how nice will she be? Remember when people thought Sharpie was so genuine and refreshing after winning Wimbledon at the age of 17?

Regarding Champagne Kimmy's Dad, let's not forget Justine's "esteemed" coach and his oft-forgotten "professionalism?"

in response to amit

women have only been allowed to play competitive sports at any level (junior, college professional) for a few yeras. considering men have had many, many more years to compete, i think women are doing a great job. we work hard, we are competitive, and we are getting better and betetr. i think it is unfair to criticize women, give us a break it is not our fault that we have only been allowed to compete for a few years now!! I would like to see you play a female athlete, i think we all know the outcome of that!! :)

Liz,

I thought women's tennis at the competitive level has been around for a few decades now, hasn't it ?

amit
for a casual tennis observe you seem to know a lot!! haha!!! i do not think you should comment on how people play. you have no idea how hard it is to compete in a sport at a high level. you do not know what is good or bad, therefor you really should not be criticising women's tennis. they are excellent athletes with a rediculous amount of mental, physical,technical, and emotional skills capable of playing any style of tennis they want.

Tennis Fan wrote:

"Women for eons were not encourged in sports nor were there many opportunities available to them. And any woman who wanted to competete were subject worse verbal abuse then you have been subject to. Many women avoid sports because of the mentality you display."

Ah, for the good old days. When we Neanderthals and Chauvinist pigs could enjoy pure sports without women messing up the scene. I think it's great for women to participate in sports if that's what they want to waste their time doing, but please give them their own TV time and their own tournaments so that I don't have to watch their pretending to be tennis, basketball or baseball players or compare them to real athletes (male) as though their efforts are comparable. Please keep them separate but unequal. Sorry if I upset you all but I believe everyone is entitled to my opinion. In the words of the great Victor Borge.

yes it has, but not nearly at the level mens has. mes tennis has been around for much longer, has had more media attention, support, etc.. if it weren't for billie jean king, i do not know where women's sports in general would be. it is not just women's tennis it is every female sport. Women were not able to compete competitivly in any sports up until a few decades ago, women have been discouraged by many people not to compete. Family, culture, and social aspects are only a few reasons women have been steered away from playing sports. there are still many barriers to break through now!! even if men have only been allowed to compete at the professional level for a few yeras longer,(actually a lot longer)they were still allowed to play for fun with friends, at thi highschool level, they could play at thier leisure with out anyone having a problem with it, this was not so for women

Amit:

I can tell you are not an American because your talking about "football" (American tranlation - soccer).

Football/Soccer is a case in point. If you were a red blooded American male you wouldn't be caught dead watching that incomprehensible boring and pansy sport called soccer, footbal in Europe. Talk about a mickey-mouse sport. It does not even compare to American Football. However, if your a European you would think vice-versa. I have a few scoccer channels on cable and I have tried to watch it but I just can't get into it. Why? A number of reasons. (1) No history - my relatives nor my peers nor anyone I knew played the game or talks about it. It is not on american television, it not on the front page of the sports section. People don't say at the office: "Did you see that great soccer match last night? Did you see so and so kick that ball? Before everyone jumps down my throat, this is starting to change as many younsters play the game now and they may continue this as adults and the climate many change. However, as sports go it is just in the American psyche. This does not mean that it is not a valid sport. I know Europeans go crazy over it. Women play it. It just can be a little bit boring. Boring why? No history, no name players, no local team to root for, no coverage in the media, wouldn't even know what good play was unless the ball goes in the net which does not happen very often. Now there are some die hard soccer fans in the US but they are few and far between. So I can't really comment on the Spanish/Englsh v Burmese game (I thought Burma was called something else now).

As far as depth and a well rounded game, just as in the women's game when you get out of the top three, it can be slim pickens on both sides but sometimes you are pleasantly surprise by the one's on the move up. What is a well rounded game? It only matters if you have game enough to win. Nadal does one thing good - he never gives up.

I do think some, but not all, men do look down on the women's tennis game for what ever reason. If you really followed the women's game and care about it all that would fall away. Don't compare the men to the women. Enjoy the women's game for what it is alone, not like the men but interesting in it's own way and just as valid.

also being a feamle athlete that is competing at a high college level, i know what it feels liek to have no respect. for all of my accomplishments shoved aside and compared to men. i am not stronger, faster, or taller than many men out there, that is why i play against other wmone. so why are we constantly compared to other men. we shouldn't be. and if you do not like women's sorts, thats fine stop watching them and commenting on them. i don't understand why you are waisting your time neanderthall pig?

actually i am american, that was a good post though.

Liz,

Before we pollute this board any further - are you being serious (which would be worrisome) or simply flame-baiting?

Ana is the best looking woman on tennis court ever!

I don't like Ana and look forward to rooting against her at every opportunity.

The comparison of the ATP/WTA to football (soccer) is fairly relevant.

The reality is that any sport, men's, women's, kid's, is irrelevant at a fundamental level. First, as a spectator you have to have a reason to care. The scoring systems of pretty much every sport is arbitrary, so its really no point in arguing, for example, that soccer is boring because of the lack of scoring.

In reality, the lack of scoring is one of the things that allows a team with less talent to hang in there with a more talented team, which creates excitement . .

But, of course, it only creates excitement if you care about the result in the first place.

Which brings us back to the beginning.

Is it just me, I am not that impressed when I watch Ana play. She is like a lesser version of a bunch of players...while I don't like Sharapova, seems like Sharpie would eat Ana for lunch every time they meet...thus plunging women's tennis into an abyss of boredom without the likes of a Williams or Henin in a final.

No, Underspin. It's not just you. I'm equally underwhelmend. It's just more streaky, loud, and mind-numbingly prosaic big Babe tennis. The fact that she's pretty and gurgles when she speaks doesn't make it any more appealing.

go ANA I think she is ready to take Maria out in the Final. That is if they make it to the final.

by the way, anyone see that article on Richard William going off on racism by the media and shredding Austin and Evert as white trash who can't hit a ball? I understand where he may be pissed re how the media has trashed his daughters, but why does he have to say A and E are white trash? Bitter man, too bad, he should enjoy their success and know that is enough to be satisfied with...also what is the story about Serena being booed at Indian Wells, that definitely sounds graceless by the audience.

Liz wrote:
"Women were not able to compete competitivly in any sports up until a few decades ago, women have been discouraged by many people not to compete. Family, culture, and social aspects are only a few reasons women have been steered away from playing sports. there are still many barriers to break through now!! even if men have only been allowed to compete at the professional level for a few yeras longer,(actually a lot longer)they were still allowed to play for fun with friends, at thi highschool level, they could play at thier leisure with out anyone having a problem with it, this was not so for women"

You are correct -- and wasn't it great. We didn't have to hear how Justine Henin's forehand or backhand was as good or better then the great Roger Federer or any other male professional tennis player for that matter. What a laugh. Or get female "tennis" stuffed down our throats when watching tournaments where both compete, albeit separately, because the networks have decided to promote female tennis for a more equal society. Or have female basketball "tournaments" dominate tv time because they are really what we should be watching according to the politically correct media circus and we don't want to upset the ladies from the NOW persuasion. This isn't sports it's a social experiment designed to make women feel that they compete on a level which is impossible for them to attain. I saw the Billy Jean King match "that changed the world" and it was a staged match and she played an OLD idiot tennis player looking for publicity and the match was put on as a joke and not a serious contest. It has just grown into the legend of female domination that you hear it was today. That's it -- enjoy living in your fantasy land.


it is true, the match between king and riggs was somewhat of a joke. that match was not the turning point for women in sports. it was good entertainment. billie jean did not revolutionize women's sports through that match but through continuous dedication to make sports available for women. and for someone who does not want women to have any tv time or be seen at all, you are sure giving them a lot of attention to them right now!!?

and you do not have to worry about watching women's tennis that much because tennis is not even on that much, so calm down!!

abd amit, i am in a much better position to comment on women's tennis. you are niether a women or a good tennis player, and therefor very ignorant on this topic

amit

i think that poster was serious, hency, worrying. as for ana... she's so purty!

Tennisfan,

Don't understand what American disinterest/ignorance about football has anything to do with my argument. I am not being dismissive of tennis as a sport. I am rather interested in tennis, but find most top tier players in the WTA to have a mind-numbingly boring game. Other than Justine or Amelie, most of the WTA game is running parallel to the baseline and ball-bashing, with very little creativity of any sort.

My assertion is that the women's game can be interesting, as shown by a handful of women. But as it stands right now, I find it extremely boring. It is not a gender issue, but a tennis skill issue.

By the way, if you think that all Nadal does is not give up, you need to take a very close look at his game.

neanderthal ---

i don't like watching wnba or women playing soccer. i find it off-putting FOR JUSTINE, though, to be constantly compared to her higher paid counterpart in the men's game. and i don't friggin' get why i can't watch the wta feed of the same tournament! but then again there are many things i don't understand.

you remind of my dad (the way you reason out on sports, that is)

amit

i love the way you reason. as for other posters in this forum who feel (not think, because i see very little evidence of it) that they're being a woman and an american makes them more knowledgeable about sport, the whole enterprise of even engaging in any meaningful discussion is laughable at best. anyway, off to the CC thread. my nalby just got himself a third set! woohoo!

next match? a boring slugfest hosted by maria sharapova. go sveta!!!

Svelte,

Agreed. I think Justine's skills should be admired irrespective of gender. However, I think the Federer comparisons are done simply because it is Federer - he has become the gold standard of tennis as a sport.

I doubt she'd be compared to Andy Roddick, had he been #1.

Anyone knows where to send e-mail about the blasphemy, committed by FSN by leaving matches in the middle?

what happened to TW recently? These no-namers weren't here last time I was (AO). Anyway I hope my 2 favorites in the WTA (Ana and Maria) meet again.

amit,
you're perfectly resonable in your arguments. i get your point of view and share it occasionally, especially when the top women aren't playing, that's why i'm more inclined to follow the ATP tour.

liz,
you don't have to be a woman or a professional tennis player to understand a sport well. amit is simply calling a spade a spade (or what looks like a spade to him) - do you have to be a gardener to be able to recognise one?

While you're busy fighting about WTA vs ATP tennis, guess what - NOBODY's watching tennis - men or women, and it's barely being broadcast. If men's tennis is so great, why can't it attract better athletes? In most countries tennis is now viewed as a "girls' sport" and the best male athletes won't be caught dead playing tennis - no cool points in it. And the best male athletes get siphoned off into the more popular and more accessible sports. There used to be a tennis court in my old neighborhood - now it's a basketball court. Almost very school has a basketball team and a football team, free uniforms, facilities, coaching and equipment. Tennis has to be paid for. Lots of families can't or won't afford it. And the number of players who get to make the big bucks in tennis are much fewer than the number of players in other sports. So fight all you want over which product is better - WTA or ATP - argue chauvinism or economics or whatever. The fact of the matter is that there's only a small universe of sports fans who care either way.

Hey embug, I have also had the wonderful opportuinty to get marats autograph at legg mason. He was so sweet and sincere.I've heard multiple positve Safin storis. It's rare that you find athletes like that. He has and always will be my favorite tennis player. Unfortunately retirement is coming up,but we have wonderful memories. I love ana, I started to really enjoy her during the Aussie Open. She's full of class, she's a fine example of the way we should all act. Best of luck to you Ana,you have a great career ahead of you. btw I was a ballkid not to long ago, and it's great to see that Ana knows how nerve wracking it can be.

Anja is still playing with JJ, but as things are so far Pet's couldn't have been more wrong. :)

no fifteen love you do not have to be a gardener to understand gardening because that is much more simplistic than tennis is. and being part of something helps you relate, respect, and understand it much better. i do not think you can really reason and make a valid point when you are just a casual tennis observer. you really do not see the game as well as someone who does play at a higher level. as for being a woman, i really do not think that many men can relate with the struggles women have gone through to play sports.

sandra,
you make really excellent points!!! i don't think we are necessarily arguing which one is better? (maybe some are) tennis is such a GREAT SPORT and it would be great to see more younger people, regardless of what gender or ethnicity get involved. and it is sad that tennis is seen as a girl's sport because it takes so much skill mentally physically and emotionally. it is by far one of the hardest and unfortunately one of the most expensive. at least we are all interested in tennis enough to argue about it!! : )

The Ivanovic/Jankovic match was fun. Ana served excellent,came in at the net, great lobs, never lost concentration. Should be and excellent final.

Liz,

Read everything I wrote carefully before carpet-bombing everything in sight, and flashing your WTA resume around. I am abundantly impressed with it already.

Do you realize that your argument implies you cannot comment on Ana or Jelena's game - you may be a woman and a tennis player, but you sure as heck are not Serbian.

liz,
using your point back on you, if you're not a gardener, without the same involvement that brings "respect, relation and understanding", are you fit to comment that that it's more "simplistic" than tennis?

i know it borders on nitpicking but if one is going to have the view that you "can't make a valid point when you're just a casual observer" then that person should be consistent.

exactly my point amit you are neither serbian, a good tennis player, nor a woman. so why do you feel the need to comment on any of this? all i am saying is that tennis is a very complicated sport, it deserves respect when played by a male, female, adult or child. it is very easy to say that something is easy, especially when compared males to females. and to soem degree both you amit and fifteen love are correct (even though none of you have played at any level above a club level, if that, or have dealt with the difficulties of trying to play a sport as a female) in the fact that none of us really know how difficult it is to play a sport at a professional level. i do not think this is what i was trying to prove. my point is, WHY DO PEOPLE FEEL THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO CRITICIZE INDIVIDUALS ON A TOPIC (playing women's tennis) WHEN THEY CAN RELATE TO IT OR EVEN QUITE UNDERSTAND IT? why can't we just respect people and their talents instead of put them down? are you jealous? why can't we just appreciate people for what they do and just love the game and understand that women participating in sports, along with other races only adds to the depth and enjoyment of the sport. all i am saying is to have respect for people what they do, and how hard they work no matter male or female and stop comparing!

Liz,

FYI, the serbian comment was meant to be sarcastic, to show just how silly your argument about women and tennis is. Clearly, it missed it's target.

I now completely understand how difficult it is for women, in America especially, to get hold of a tennis racket, join a club and actually sustain a meaningful all-court rally. All due to the oppressive male chauvinism in the US. Belgian women are of course exempt from this because they have the full-throated support of Belgian men to play an multidimensional game.

I am an Indian. Cricket is the most popular game here. I used to like it very much and I still like it very much. But I like tennis more, thanks to Roger. So if I want to watch a cricket match, I would want to watch Tendulkar or a Dravid bat against a full-fledged Australian attack. I won't like to watch a regional match, though I know how high level/competitive is that and how much hard work they do. The point I think amit is raising that If we like a sport, we would want to watch at its highest quality. I totally agree with that. If anyone likes men's tennis more than women tennis, that does not mean that he/she is disrespecting women tennis and their skill/hardwork. Its just that we know that men's tennis is high level of tennis than women tennis. And some like to watch it more than women tennis cause of pure difference of skill, not that they don't respect women tennis.

I would do disgusting things to her.

I am an Indian. Cricket is the most popular game here. I used to like it very much and I still like it very much. But I like tennis more, thanks to Roger. So if I want to watch a cricket match, I would want to watch Tendulkar or a Dravid bat against a full-fledged Australian attack. I won't like to watch a regional match, though I know how high level/competitive is that and how much hard work they do. The point I think amit is raising that If we like a sport, we would want to watch at its highest quality. I totally agree with that. If anyone likes men's tennis more than women tennis, that does not mean that he/she is disrespecting women tennis and their skill/hardwork. Its just that we know that men's tennis is high level of tennis than women tennis. And some like to watch it more than women tennis cause of pure difference of skill, not that they don't respect women tennis.

Ana rocks! I love Ana Ivanovic on court because of her pleasing attitude.

I am a huge Ana fan and cannot wait until she wins her first grand slam, which I think will be fairly soon.One of my closest friends, who knows nothing about tennis, knows of Ivanovic, if only for her beauty. He told me, "I could watch her fold laundry." That's one way to get out of doing it yourself!
Tennis Junkie

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