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Watercooler: Dewy-eyed Warriors
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03/06/2008 - 3:10 PM
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Posted by Schwab |
03/06/2008 at 03:16 PM |
Semifinal predictions:
Davydenko over Lopez - Kolya is too steady from the baseline
Djokovic over Roddick - In 2008, Nole is the player to beat in all HC tournaments this year. Roddick may have to get another part(s) of his game working tomorrow 'cuz he probably won't ace Novak 10+ times.
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Posted by Yummy Prince Fed Rules |
03/06/2008 at 03:24 PM |
Pete this is what is called an apopros post. Funny you should mention the backhand as I believe that it is a shot that only the most diligent of players can master and I always look in amazement at some of the players who have made the backhand their signature shot and from which a lot of other players stay away from. Last night in my first competitive match (league match no less) I found that my opponent was serving most balls to my backhand. Guess his coach told him to do that. After a while I started running around the backhand to hit a forehand on the return as well as when the rallies got going. I am a very powerful lady so most of the time when I was able to step around the backhand and into the forehand side I invariably made either a winner or an unforced error. It does take a lot of quick steps to get around the backhand and hit a good forehand reply and kudos to those who do it and make it seem so effortless and seamless. On the other hand quite apart from teaching weekend warriors to step around the backhand, perhaps they could teach how to do an effective slice, so that your opponent is left wanting as you will inevitably get a short reply from the slice, which will open up the court for a forehand cross court or forehand down the line winner. Happened quite a bit to me last night, and I came out on the winning end in some of those rallies. |
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Posted by Todd and in Charge |
03/06/2008 at 03:26 PM |
Ok, I'll take a whack. You'd need a better-than-average serve, because you'll need to pick up points there. I would serve to the middle of the court on the deuce side, so less angle is created on return and more net point putaways are available. I would serve to the backhand on the ad side, hoping for a weak reply that would set up a winner cross-court or net point.
From the baseline, once a rally is established, the goal has to be accurate and deep balls, alternating cross-court, until a weaker ball allows for a sharp-angled inside-out forehand, or an outright winner down the line.
The vulnerabilities, of course, come when -- like Roddick used to do, say in early 06 -- your inside-outs are not particularly effective to the backhand side, and your opponent can hit fast and deep down the line. If you don't move well, having shifted outside the doubles line on the ad side to hit your inside-out, you are finished. This was Roddick's problem before he started moving better and hitting a more varied and controlled backhand.
I would also argue that adopting a forehand-only strategy might be better-suited to clay court, where you can work points and angles until you find a winner. If you face an opponent who can hit backhands with precision where you are not, on a fast court, you're gonna have trouble. |
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Posted by DMS |
03/06/2008 at 03:27 PM |
is this where we over analyze the Nadal loss mod?
Pong alert, set your TIVO or DVR...looks like we get some pong in the Vegas tourney.
Is is just me, or is there much less tennis on tennis channel? I seem to remember that the ATP had a South American swing, and that I saw a bit of it on TTC. No more. Or maybe the tennis channel open is a two week event? |
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Posted by Robin (Feedforward) |
03/06/2008 at 03:28 PM |
Stunned to see my name mentioned as one of the NTRP-exaggerating players. Honored to be even mentioned and dissed to feel that I have ever given any evidence of my rating, too high or too low.
Will try to respond more to your point about playing like Carlos later when I finish 12 more reports due in Eastern Europe by tomorrow morning.
I appreciate your prodding us once again to think, reevaluate.
I will try not to get started on a tangent (my campaign for truth in NTRP ratings. Right now they are a fiction as 30 year old division 1 players try to hide at 4.5 and even 4.0).
And I may explain my new handle, Feedforward, which is central to the sports psy aspect of my work. |
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Posted by Yummy Prince Fed Rules |
03/06/2008 at 03:28 PM |
Schwab, I think Roddick may surprise you. I saw him play in the San Jose final against Stepanek, and I have to say that his game seemed to have improved greatly. I am on tenterhooks on why the Roddick/Connors partnership is no more. Not sure whether that is a good or bad thing for Andy as I was always of the view that Andy needed to get back to the game that won him his one and only major. There are too many fooling with what works for him and that has allowed all and sundry to beat him. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why Fed does not have a coach, because to listen to some commentators Fed needs to be more aggressive, Fed needs to be more patient, Fed needs to hit more top spin, no slice, no come into net, everyone has an opinion and I think that can really mess with a player's psyche if everyone comes and tries to mess with their game.
On the Novak thing, I dont think he is the player to beat on HC at all. he has had a good start this year, but to me the race is not for the swift but for those who can endure. |
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Posted by TennisChica |
03/06/2008 at 03:34 PM |
Pete, thanks! You have confirmed what I have been thinking and in the process are saving me $65/hour. While I will continue to work by backhand (and its OH!), I will stop fretting about it and concentrate on my FH and use it to my advantage. |
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Posted by Christopher |
03/06/2008 at 03:41 PM |
"so why are recreational players - precisely those men and women who would benefit the most from hiding a weak, or weaker, shot - so loath to build their games around the forehand, which is almost always the far better and steadier shot for a hacker?"
Fun post, but my very strong impression (from playing junior and then decently high level recreational tennis for the past 30 years of so) is that recreational players constantly run around their backhands. Not that they are producing spectacular forehands, but they'll often do anything possible to avoid hitting on the other side. Heck, I've seen plenty of players willing to get consistently aced by a decent (right handed) slice serve rather than just move over a bit to their right and risk having to return a serve with their backhand. |
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Posted by beth |
03/06/2008 at 03:43 PM |
First off , Pete , I do not wear headbands , slap my thighs or over exaggerate my rating
:P
And I have a good backhand , it is my better groundstroke
:P
But that being said , you make a lot of sense. I play so many people with good forehands, who cannot for the life of them hit a backhand drive without poking at it hopelessly , that I am ashamed I cannot get my serve to the damned weaker wing on a more reliable basis. I have evaluated these things in warmup - but can I execute? well not often enough
Guess that is why I am in the 3.5 to 4.0 range - Most realistically if there was a 3.75, I would be their poster child - and not on the pro tour.
Still I think the main reason the average club player takes that neutral stance is the lack of footspeed required to run around that shot. Some of these older ladies that I play have simply forgotten that recreational tennis is supposed to be exercise - and those few extra steps would just finish them off .
Can't wait to see ya, buddy! It is gonna be fun |
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Posted by Pete |
03/06/2008 at 03:45 PM |
YPF - I read with great interest about your first match on the other thread and can only echo what my fellow posters said, You Go Girl!!!
Christopher, point taken, but you know, in keeping with the "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" meme, very solid, fairly talented, types are the ones most apt to resist running around the fh. They have hope, perhaps, of being "good" and thus strive for mastery. |
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Posted by DMS |
03/06/2008 at 03:47 PM |
Oh, this post had some substance on top of forum provision for us bored at work.
Well, as one who would be in da'club, I act like some wannabe Joba Chamberlain, or Rafael Nadal, and run around nothing, I hit a right hand and left hand forehand when playing sometimes...just for who buys the beer so what the hail...and tis true, you can override natural handness if done at early age. The aforementioned lads are way better proof of this, however.
But this all assumes that the da'club player has good enough movement (and less enough body fat) to actually run around it. Which is why I bring this all up. |
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Posted by Andrew |
03/06/2008 at 03:52 PM |
Odd, I'm left-handed, too, and I always considered my backhand better.
Is this a lefty phenomenon?
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Posted by Pete |
03/06/2008 at 03:59 PM |
Andrew - yes it is, join the club: me, you, Laver, McEnroe! |
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Posted by izidane |
03/06/2008 at 04:03 PM |
First, congrats to Andy. I like the guy despite his 'malfunctions'
He redeems himself everytime, like when he supports countries like Belarus per Kristy's 10:30 Watercooler post. The Djoker's going to hard to beat, but I'll keeep the faith. Guess I like disfunction... Marat implodes, Andy lashes out and Daveed just goes away.
Kolya the Assasin bagged Muzzah! And FLo beat Ferru?
I gave up on my backhand last year, didn't spend too much money on it either. I just realised that it would never improve. Every now and then I'll suprise myself out of desperation, but it's never my go to shot. |
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Posted by Yummy Prince Fed Rules |
03/06/2008 at 04:07 PM |
Oooh Beth, you are that good. Dang. No wonder your tips work for me.
Hi Pete, thanks for the shoutout. I am so looking forward to my next match. Woo hoo. I will take pictures of myself on the court next time and post them. |
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Posted by Pete |
03/06/2008 at 04:14 PM |
Better yet, YPF, why not send them to Heidi, at socialdirector@tennismagazine.com? That will be better! |
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Posted by Yummy Prince Fed Rules |
03/06/2008 at 04:17 PM |
Pete, excellent, I will make sure that I do that - LOL |
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Posted by darthhelmethead(lurker in reform) |
03/06/2008 at 04:21 PM |
I camp out on my forehand corner all the time because my backhand is my far better shot, and I'm a righty. I always found it odd that so many people prefer the forehand, or two handed backhands which is basially an odd sort of lefthanded forehand. |
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Posted by Miguel Seabra |
03/06/2008 at 04:22 PM |
Believe this if you can...
A couple of years back, determined to get his backhand better, Carlos Moya went to well-know (at least within the pro tour) physio Paul Dorochenko just to, through some process, rebuild his backhand technique -- he was used to hit the backhand with both hands standing too much apart from an early age on, and he was trying to change the grip of the second hand and move it closer.
But changing a technique that has been used for two decades isn't easy. So, they 'erased' his mechanic memory in order to get him to start executing the backhand in a different way. How did they do that? With low-frequency pulsed sounds and neuromotor reprogramming.
The outcome? He started hitting his backhand better... and lost a bit the main asset in his arsenal and changed the main focus in his game -- to use his forehand as a weapon as much as possible. And his results suffered from that 'change in perspective', along with his ranking. When he was able to understand what was going on and go back to his old 'mono' style (as opposed to the 'stereo' style of a David Nalbandian), he got his tennis back and the results as well.
Our own portuguese player Rui Machado, a Future-level player, had a serious left knee injury when whe was 242ยบ in the rankings. Afterwards, there was a huge difference between jumping with his left leg and his right leg -- so, he went to Paul Dorochenko and after visualising the differense in impulsion between both legs, he 'erased' completely that image from his head while laying down listening to those low frequence sounds through headphones; then, he 'tranferred' those good sensations from the right leg to the left leg... and these days both legs have the some power of impulsion!
Paul Dorochenko is based in Valencia and has got more than 20 top-50 clients, including Roger Federer, it seems; besides, he's the only one besides italian doctor Pier Paolo Parra to have a special laser that can cure acute cases of tendinitis in a mere couple of minutes instead of those lenghty procedures... that's why players queue up at Dottore Parra's hotel room during a Grand Slam: he travels to those big events with his own laser machine! Gotta pay him a visit during Wimbledon, I guess... |
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Posted by izidane |
03/06/2008 at 04:24 PM |
Pete
most embarrasing moment trying to perfect my non-existent backhand was when I shanked it and the ball proceeded to go over the fence and boink a little 5yr old playing soccer! If only the courts could have opened up and swallowed me. |
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Posted by kooyong |
03/06/2008 at 04:28 PM |
if you look at the pros who have successfully employed that strategy (e.g. Fed, Nadal, Graf), they're all very fast around the court and have great footwork. Plus, you have hit a penetrating shot once you run around your backhand or you'll leave your opponent with a more open court for the next shot. So this assumes that player (a) is fast, or at least faster than average, (b) has the footwork to make the necessary adjustments to pull that kind of a shot off; and (c) has a good enough forehand to get the opponent on the defense to make the strategy worthwhile. You will give up too much court position on the next shot if you're running around solely for the sake of hitting a mediocre forehand.
I see people do this competently around the 4.5 level and up, but it doesn't sound like an attainable strategy for beginners or even most intermediate players because it's hard to put all of that together in order to pull it off on a consistent basis. |
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Posted by skip1515 |
03/06/2008 at 04:31 PM |
A short note, before reading Pete's entire post:
Years ago a student offered one of the most classic lines of all time. When asked about her backhand she replied, "Oh, that's just what I do in-between forehands." |
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Posted by izidane |
03/06/2008 at 04:34 PM |
ack!
embarrassing. And yes, the kid was fine. |
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Posted by Carrie |
03/06/2008 at 04:34 PM |
I must admit that I do not run around the backhand. I do run around the forehand...hee! My backhand is by far my better shot. I have little elf child wrists and hands or something and have always had problems with my one handed forehand because I can on occasion lose my grip when returning a powerfully hit, flat shot for for example. Now that is embarrassing. |
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Posted by Pete |
03/06/2008 at 04:51 PM |
kooyong, but keep in mind that people tend to play against people of the same level, so the lack of foot speed/mobility would also hurt the play who's having to face and deal more forceful, aggressive forehands instead of weak backhands. |
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Posted by Tokyo Tom (tt) |
03/06/2008 at 04:51 PM |
called out - ok, I'll bite - perhaps it comes and goes like the tide. At a certain level there is no pace anywere in sight so why run around anything when all you have to do is stick out the super powerful version of (insert maker) racquet in front of the ball? And who is to say these guys even have a forehand? Makes sense to be in the middle to get to more balls as these guys seem to run to slow or (strange as it seems) to fast to have it make sense.
The Pros - well only the pros can make those gets and have to address the power - not relevant
that leaves us with the average club player. I totally agree that moving around to hit a forehand versus a backhand is perfect for the one handers - unless they have a wicked two hander that is better than their forehand. It seems that just getting them to move their feet to get in position for either shot is a bigger issue than that killer inside out forehand.
That said at the over the hill, faded Uni player - it is a common tactic don't you think? These guys can hit a backhand but most winners come off the forehand side.
At the end of the day it is far less about winners than hitting one more shot per rally in the court than the other guy. |
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Posted by Yummy Prince Fed Rules |
03/06/2008 at 04:52 PM |
come on Gonzo take this to a third set so I can get home to watch tennis |
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Posted by Andrew |
03/06/2008 at 04:55 PM |
My BH is definitely the weaker shot, and at the moment I spend most of my time in lessons working on BH ground strokes. My (non-exaggerated) NTRP ranking would be between 4.0 and 4.5, I think: I could make a case for 4.5 with a solid BH and more consistent service motion.
Nearly all (not quite all) of my attacking GS are FH; I can pass with a BH, and occasionally hit a DTL or CC winner against an out-of-position opponent, but more usually the BH is defensive for me. I will often use the inside/out FH as a forcing or winning shot, with more success than the inside-in.
I think a reason for emphasizing the BH is psychological: in my most recent tournament in Calgary, opponents learned that they could pound away at the ad side. A solid BH takes that option away. |
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Posted by harini |
03/06/2008 at 04:57 PM |
man i had this huge thing up about nole and i clicked 'post' and it said the comments were closed! well here it is anyway :)
i used to hate every player who beat hewitt back in the day. seriously. that's how much i loved lleyton. if he lost, i'd be all over the place, upset and moody.
i've always had several favourites. i can't think of players i didn't like much, other than roddick. i think i didn't like most of the american players, just because of coverage.
but i think after i got over lleyton, i started enjoying tennis more. i had my usual favourites...the young ones like rafa and players like grosjean or tim henman etc. and i rooted for them. i'm trying to think of players i didn't/don't like much but none are really coming to mind at the moment. even roddick, when he's on court, he aggravates me but he's been ok off-court.
anyway! i think it's easy to see why ppl don't like nole. you've got rafa and roger, who've had a rivalry but are very respectful of each other. then you have nole, who is arrogant and says what he thinks and, i think, doesn't care. i think he's got a pretty good game and even though he needs to shut up once in a while, i think he does play well most of the time and proves he's good enough to beat the top players.
i think nole just brings a different personality to tennis compared to roger or rafa and i think it's been a while since tennis fans have seen a personality like him on the tour.
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Posted by TennisChica |
03/06/2008 at 04:58 PM |
Here is the end of the Gonzalez-Korolev match. Previous thread is closed:
Gonzalez hits it long: 3-4, korolev
Korolev, hits FH long, 4-4
korolev, BH volley, 5-4, korolev
Gonzalez hits into the net, 6-4 korolev
Gonzalez goes for a big FH dtl and it goes into the net. 7-4. Match, Korolev.
The 1st seed is now out. Gonzalez did a great job to come back from 5-2 but it was too late. |
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Posted by Tokyo Tom (tt) |
03/06/2008 at 04:59 PM |
My god Ed, it even matches your kit - |
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Posted by CL |
03/06/2008 at 05:00 PM |
Hmmm.... i am a lefty playing tennis as a righty and my back hand is ... well i won't say, 'better' shot.... that would imply some level of it actually being good...but it is more reliable, and for me, a safer shot. But I don't think I am especially guilty of running around either side. Maybe I'm just lazy. :-)
Still pondering Connors/Roddick split. |
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Posted by harini |
03/06/2008 at 05:02 PM |
pete nice article. i am one of those idealistic amateurs--my backhand sucks but it's the one stroke i want to perfect so badly. i don't play enough tennis as i want to but when i do, i try to never run around my backhand.
the funny thing is, i took a tennis class one summer in high school. it was either me or someone else who ran around their backhand and the teacher/coach chided us for doing it. ever since then, i feel i have to perfect the stroke and not go around it.
man i can't wait for warm weather. and to get my racquet. i need to find someone to play tennis against come spring! |
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Posted by Ed McGrogan |
03/06/2008 at 05:03 PM |
Oh yeah tt, I saw the shirt on sale a few months later at a Dick's Sporting Goods on Long Island...couldn't pass it up. Probably one of my favorite outfits Nike has ever made.
And to add to what Pete has mentioned above, I was practicing the backhand ad nasuem last night, while eschewing the forehand... |
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Posted by Todd and in Charge |
03/06/2008 at 05:04 PM |
Same here. I'm a lefty playing tennis as a righty. My BH is definitely my go-to shot, solid and powerful, yet I find myself constantly forcing myself to hit forehands to get better or "prove" some inane point to myself.
Gosh, tennis is such an odd sport.... |
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Posted by dm30 |
03/06/2008 at 05:06 PM |
YPF (Karen): from the other thread, I have also seen Asia Muhammad play. Last year at the US Open, after leaving the Henin-Venus match, I wandered to the outer courts to see if anything was still going on. Ended up seeing a few games of a girls' doubles match featuring Urszula R and her partner against an American team ... now that you mention her name, I remember it was Asia M and her partner. I think Asia had good groundstrokes, *the backhand in particular*, and she and her partner worked well together at net. They would either finish points up there together, or if one of them was engaged in a backcourt-to-backcourt crosscourt rally, the other one at net would poach as soon as she got the chance and cut off the angle for the volley winner. I don't remember their serves being big weapons, but they had some good plays. I didn't see quite a whole set, but I think they played their opponents tough and lost a very close match.
So yeah, Asia could be a good rooting interest in time.
And ... my backhand sucks. And I'm left-handed. |
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Posted by harini |
03/06/2008 at 05:08 PM |
all right, time for me to sign off! i thought i'd be able to watch the live streaming tomorrow at home since it's my day off but i get to come in to work early for a bit. oh well! maybe saturday!
have a great evening everyone! |
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Posted by yello fuzz |
03/06/2008 at 05:10 PM |
My forehand was so bad that I went to the two-handed Seles/Santoro forehand...
for about 2 matches |
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Posted by Voks |
03/06/2008 at 05:12 PM |
LOL, same thing here Harini, here is mine:
SCT, of course it does not apply to everyone, and I agree, some of his comments, esp those about Fed "going down" and against Rafa "in control" have given sufficient material to people who simply don't like to hear that, to "don't like the guy". His disgusting looking mother didn't help either.
I personally am pretty sick when I read obvious hate inspired with certain player beating (or saying that he will beat) against some other player. And this doesn't just apply to Novak and Fed, but to everyone. I mean, there are forums with that purpose, with all those avatars and all that. For example, we can see that Novak's bandwagon is, naturally, growing like snowball down the slope, witch results in growing hate towards Federer and alike... That is equally disgusting.
yello fuzz made excellent point at 4:06 about the influence that press has on dividing camp, so I guess that has something to do with reasons for that. Fortunately, these are not ancient Roman times when "fans" of certain "competitors" knew different ways do express theirs likings. |
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Posted by marieJ |
03/06/2008 at 05:17 PM |
i think i never disliked anyone because he beated rafa... it's simply poor sportmanship from a true fan, imo.
but i still dislike or get indifferent to some players but for other reasons, sometimes i just do not connect with their personnalities, game, on court behavior, blake is one of those... even if i could read rolo's book, i'm not sure to change my mind ;)
i try to respect everyone, but if i need to say the guy acted like a jerk, i say it no matter who...
those guys live sometimes intense emotions and we do share them or not... after so many rafa matches i don't live all his matches with the same emotional state as before... thank got, i would be prone to heart attack by now ;)
about the bh... i have no idea since i don't play... but seing gonzo or moya or rafa turning around to hit one winner it's allways enjoyable from my view... :D
i think, now nole backed up his talk by winning tittles over the big 2 and winning a slam, i say he can says what he wants...
in RG 06 i found his talk prententious and out of propos about how he was in control of the game while beaten by rafa and giving up the match...
it's allways going to be about him, just like so many other guys or girls who have the intelligence, shyness or hypocresy of not telling what they think when it sounds provocative...
sometimes i wish rafa would speak his mind like nole and say he wants to get over fed before some other guys surpass him... that he hates losing like today, but he's too nice for that, isn't he ? |
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Posted by Rosangel |
03/06/2008 at 05:19 PM |
A reply to the previous watercooler thread, which is closed:
tt: I was thinking about this serving question from my own point of view - and, although I can't play at the level that you do (haven't even been able to play or even train recently due to injury), I suspect that in part my reaction stems from being unable to relate to being any kind of big server myself - for years most of what I've been able to do is down to being able to move fast (it's certainly not due to superior technique!).
Then there's also the "emotional" reaction to seeing all the hard work that goes into winning some interesting point in a rally where two people are testing each other out, erased by a big, boring, unreturnable serve being muscled down at close to 150mph, as happened today. In a small way, it's like having a knockout punch before you've seen any boxing, or a duel where someone gets killed by the victor's first thrust.
On the subject mentioned on Pete's post above - my forehand and backhand are about equally as bad as each other. But oddly enough, although I use a two-handed backhand, I can volley better on the backhand side. I used to have to use a two-handed forehand, and sometimes still do.
Once I get back to running again and am feeling fit enough to play tennis, perhaps I should spend more time working on that forehand.... |
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Posted by L. Rubin |
03/06/2008 at 05:19 PM |
"and let them see if they would rather win matches or have nice strokes"
Are you listening, Richard Gasquet?
--Liron
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Posted by yello fuzz |
03/06/2008 at 05:19 PM |
Voks
It's the nature of the beast.
think of everything from soccer hooligans to cheese-heads...humanity ain't pretty...I hope anything from another planet isn't watching us. sometimes I'm embarrassed being human |
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Posted by Voks |
03/06/2008 at 05:23 PM |
Yeah, those two green creatures from "The Simpsons" are laughing off... |
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Posted by SCT |
03/06/2008 at 05:28 PM |
Voks: You bring up some good points, and I think we're on the same page for the most part. The press point that yello fuzz brought up about the press is something that I agree with to some extent, but I also feel that there are a fair number of people who make up their minds independent of what the press says.
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Posted by tennut |
03/06/2008 at 05:29 PM |
Does that mean that both the Tennis blog writers are lefties??? |
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Posted by yello fuzz |
03/06/2008 at 05:35 PM |
marieJ
Rafa is the class of this generation of players, blame it on his english if you want, but he seems to be sincere, thoughtful and gracious in defeat as well as in victory. At the AO, when Tsonga was steamrolling him, Rafa found a moment to smile, at one point during the 3rd set. Don't think I've seen Fed do that when he's that far down in a match. Roger wants to make history, it's more than a game to him now.
Sampras kinda ambled into history, with that tongue hanging out .Pete didn't have this media maelstrom to trumpet his every move, breath and utterance. The press has filled Rogers head with tales of greatness, and riches beyond any mans dreams.He could be the queen to Tigers Woods King of all sports. He will be bestowed with Blazers emblazon with his name, golden shoes and a court of young players to be summoned at the snap of his fingers,to his kingdom in the desert...
ok I guess I'm getting carried away |
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Posted by marieJ |
03/06/2008 at 05:36 PM |
ok off to bed...
i need to catch some sleep asap !
fun to see so many of you are lefties like rafa and i wonder if some of you are writies in their day life apprt tennis like him...
catch you tomorrow during andy vs nole !
hajde or comon ? whatever... rafa lost ;) |
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Posted by marieJ |
03/06/2008 at 05:39 PM |
tks yellow fuzz...
rafa is naturally shy... maybe when he'll mature and reaches the age of roger he'll talk from another perspective... an accomplished young man... it's the best i can wish to him ;) |
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Posted by Voks |
03/06/2008 at 05:43 PM |
hahahaha... so right yellow fuzz
About Rafa asp |
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Posted by Lance Knobel |
03/06/2008 at 05:43 PM |
As another "3.75" player, I certainly hear you, Pete. I haven't quite gone all the way you suggest, but I'm more successful in singles so far this year because I've determined to crack my forehand every chance I get.
I'll experiment with you suggestion during my weekend match and see how it goes. Certainly if you want to create a group of guinea pigs I'd be up for it. |
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Posted by yello fuzz |
03/06/2008 at 05:49 PM |
thats why I like Rafa so much, he seems pretty humble...Uncle Tony 's not gonna take any lip |
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Posted by Voks |
03/06/2008 at 05:51 PM |
Gee, now that Ive read Pete's post, I again feel sorry that I could not play tennis as much as I wanted. Actually, one of few courts in Belgrade is just like 200 m away from my house, but it is so expensive and it is always full (esp since last year). And my playing partner is so bad and rather lacking in enthusiasm that it takes huge effort to make him join me. This is all in past tense - last time I played was in aprl or may last year. |
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Posted by yello fuzz |
03/06/2008 at 05:55 PM |
Voks
I wish you were here. although there is some snow on the ground, there are plenty of indoor courts that aren't too expensive and lots of public parks courts that are free here
in the cornfields of middle america. I am searching for a partner to play, as soon as spring comes |
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Posted by Voks |
03/06/2008 at 06:00 PM |
I wish I could be there too... Maybe I come next year after Im finished with my army duty. I have friends in D.C. and N.Y. That is of course if it could be possible to get visa and all that considering this stuff with Kosovo.
Anyway, my dh backhand is actually better than my forehand (right hand) so I may not be the best person to give some advice, but for what I ve seen from some players who generally suck in bh department, they use single hand backhand slice with their left hand (theirs forehand being usual right hand) just to chip over the net... this works only against 100 kg+ players who cant reach the ball in time though :-) esp on clay. |
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Posted by Sherlock |
03/06/2008 at 06:02 PM |
I, too, am a member of the lefties playing as righties club. Cool. :)
Also a member of CL's lazy club. :) If the forehand was worth the effort, it might make sense. But since it isn't much better than the backhand, pfffft. |
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Posted by Ruth |
03/06/2008 at 06:14 PM |
I watch tennis, but I play golf (no boos, please). and Pete's post reminds me of players like me who simply cannot execute a godd chip shot when the ball is close to the green. At first, I felt that I just HAD to learn how to chip properly. (Whenever you guys talk about IW, I am reminded of a $40.00 half hour lesson on chipping at a club in Palm Springs many years ago.) All my attempts proved unsuccessful. so now, when I have a ball close to the green, I proudly take out my putter (or sand wedge) and gently putt it onto the green and -- sometimes -- right into the hole.
Needless to say, when I played tennis in my younger days, I ran the vast majority of my backhands to hit a forehand. I think that I can count on my fingers the number of good backhands that I hit in my years as a recreational tennis player. |
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Posted by Voks |
03/06/2008 at 06:14 PM |
it sure helps if playing against wheel chair league guy. |
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Posted by Voks |
03/06/2008 at 06:15 PM |
sorry, thats brutal |
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Posted by Voks |
03/06/2008 at 06:15 PM |
thats typical black humor down here, didn't mean nothing |
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Posted by Aussie Ange |
03/06/2008 at 06:25 PM |
Great post Pete and congratulations YPF on your win. Hoped you celebrated afterwards. I actually find Moya's game attractive to watch as he is quick footed (not so much these days) and he does move into the net from time to time. And yes his bh does frustrate the hell out of me but it prolly frustrate him a lot more but he has improved it a lot better over the last couple of years. |
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Posted by |
03/06/2008 at 06:37 PM |
Pete, I hear you, but the problem that I usually see are people who run around their "weaker" backhand, but don't/can't do enough with the forehand to compensate for their bad court positioning and their opponent can just tap (or at the higher levels, bash) the next shot to the open court. Unless you have a really good forehand (not simply that your forehand is better than your backhand) that will do some damage or force your opponent to hit defensive shot, I don't think that it's the high percentage play because you give up too much court. Also, a lot of times, it's not possible to run around your backhand, so you kind of have to learn to develop something that will keep you in the point.
I agree with you that it's surprising that more pros with so/so backhands don't do it more. Gonzo was like that for awhile until he and his coach decided that he needed develop a better backhand and I think that actually had a negative effect on his game because he's less inclined to try and win the point with his awesome forehand, which is always going to be more leathal than his serviceable, but otherwise unspectactular, backhand. It's almost like adding options to his game made him less aggressive (and, in his case, less effective). |
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Posted by |
03/06/2008 at 06:41 PM |
Roger is still World #1 before IW and Miami where he stands to gain a lot of points this year after his 2 losses Canas last year, and Rafa stands to lose some points especially in IW, which he surprisingly won last year, though he never player Roger there, of course.
Roger will be back soon. He'll win again and play well again. |
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Posted by Aussie Ange |
03/06/2008 at 06:47 PM |
Congrats to Feli winning through hope he goes all the way so he can get the knockers off his back. And yes he does look pretty in blue Or. I'm not surprised that Roddick and Connors have split. Andy hasn't been getting the results he prolly wanted could also explain his attitude lately. |
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Posted by Mr. and Mrs. D. |
03/06/2008 at 06:50 PM |
Mr. Bodo, I don't know how serious you meant your post to be but I'm printing it and handing it to my partner at our next match. Maybe it will put a stop to the "Don't be afraid of your backhand" comments I get over and over and over... |
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Posted by codepoke |
03/06/2008 at 06:53 PM |
Looking for the Roddick scoop, and what do I see but a technical post! And my name! (Due to some utterly inexplicable brain fart, I'm sure. Pete needed X number of names, and I filled the quota. ;-)
Heck, Pete, I'm that idealist you write about. I mean, that's exactly me. I am wired to lose matches the "right way" all day long. In fact, my current major issue is that I have the best strokes on the court and lose repeatedly.
I suck at this game, and should quit it immediately.
So, what about my backhand?
I've always had this backhand that makes people stop and comment on it. I've made grown men stop and stare. And I could hit the near ad corner as easily as the deep deuce corner. And I was as consistent as junebug on acid. I never "just missed." I always hit the most stunning winner (1 time in 4) or missed the court (no stats provided).
The problem is my forehand has never been good enough to take over my game. I just don't have the nerve to risk the big winner off the forehand like I do off the backhand. That left me firmly in Loser-land. :-(
So, I spent the money and rebuilt my backhand this fall. Dang. I'm soooooooo happy. These days I'm still losing, but I only have two tournaments of experience under my belt and almost no other match play. And most of the games I'm losing are on my serve after I've gone up 40-15 (Like I said - I suck at this game.)
My new backhand draws no ooohs or aaahs. It's a straight semi-western punch through the ball, and it's getting reliable (wow, what's that like!? I know!!!) I score about 40% of my winners off the backhand wing because no one expects a kill shot over there, and especially not with the one-hander. No one expects me to hit an inside out winner from the middle of the court off the wrong side of my body.
May. May is when I play my first tournament with the new shot.
I'm staying here in ideal-land, and I'm gonna make it happen.
Death to common sense! Bravely into the valley of death rode the knuckle-head!
Great post.
And I'm sure I'll be thinking about it for the next 3 months.
We'll see. :-) |
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Posted by Tim (wake up Fed!) |
03/06/2008 at 06:55 PM |
Anderson just out-Isnered Isner...the Vegas draw is looking Rotterdam-esque... missing TMF like crazy, tennis will just not be the same without him, just baseball hats and cookie cutter ball bashers ... |
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Posted by Aussie Ange |
03/06/2008 at 07:00 PM |
Hey Tim have you seen Snoo in your travels. She is MIA. |
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Posted by greeen eggs and ham |
03/06/2008 at 07:01 PM |
Ok, Bodo, great tennis journalist, just like "absolutely" a few years back,a"Hail" is getting older then the hails, pick your cliche. For the love of pete knock it off please..... |
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Posted by Aneirin |
03/06/2008 at 07:03 PM |
This one really hit home for me, in the sense that the worst I can find on a tennis court is moonballers, people who return soft, dead high balls in the middle of the court ... I admit I can't handle those when I don't have enough time to go to the net to volley them (or they come to high for it, but too low for an overhead).
What need I do to get over that? |
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Posted by Aussie Ange |
03/06/2008 at 07:13 PM |
Other headcases Gasquet, PMH, Amelie and Kuz. |
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Posted by Tim (wake up Fed!) |
03/06/2008 at 07:39 PM |
Hey Aussie no Snoo sightings, alas Ive been shrouded in flu misery for awhile, and the results in Dubai this week didnt exactly help improve my mood ... actually looking forward to seeing Fed next Monday, via TC but oh well. |
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Posted by Supersnark |
03/06/2008 at 07:50 PM |
I'm interested to see how Roddick serves to Djoko, I'd like him to try serving straight at him since he stands so close to the baseline to return. Djoko's return position is great, he cuts off the angle and usually returns deep with a lot of pace, but a good fast serve at his chest should be tricky to deal with from that close. |
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Posted by TennisChica |
03/06/2008 at 08:13 PM |
Moderator, I sent you an email, could you take a look? Please?
Thanks! |
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Posted by Tim (wake up Fed!) |
03/06/2008 at 08:18 PM |
I dont see Roddick having much of a chance with djoker becuase he's just not as good from the baseline and Djoker can get enough returns back to get a break ... Rafa didnt play too great today and he still should have won the first set, credit to Andy for hanging in, of course... a win over nadal is always hard fought at the very least... |
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Posted by crazyone |
03/06/2008 at 08:21 PM |
I wouldn't be surprised if Djoker out-aces Roddick. |
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Posted by Schwab |
03/06/2008 at 08:37 PM |
Bryans against Guccione/Hewitt in doubles shortly on TC.
Sam,
Kiki Vanderweghe's daughter beat the feel good story in week 1 at the USO, Rolle(beat Tati round 1) 6-4 in set 3 at the ITF tourney in Paris. |
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Posted by ncot |
03/06/2008 at 08:39 PM |
nice article, pete.
the backhand is my stronger side, so i used to run around a forehand and drive the ball to where i want it to go. never fails to surprise the opponent.
my forehand is better now so i don't have to cover it anymore. but still those run-around backhand days were fun. |
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Posted by Schwab |
03/06/2008 at 08:56 PM |
Guess Jimmy Arias is off 'cuz Barry MacKay and Leif Sharas are doing the commentary on TC.
Bryans lead 3-2 with the Aussie to serve.
Bryans broke Hewitt at 15 to lead 3-1 but the Aussies broke back on their 3rd BP(final BP was deciding point) chance with a good return by Hewitt and a put away at the net by Guccione. |
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Posted by CL |
03/06/2008 at 08:58 PM |
Hey Sherlock and Todd....did you end up as lefties playing righty in tennis only, or other sports as well?? |
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Posted by skip1515 |
03/06/2008 at 09:02 PM |
1. Club players tend to assess their individual shots with a measuring stick that uses the best of each shot as a baseline; their best forehand is better than their best backhand, therefore their forehand is better than their backhand. Ironically their backhands are oftentimes more steady, i.e., with fewer unforced errors, but because they can occasionally hit their forehands harder they *have* a better forehand.
Some perverse gene in us gives us the emotional latitude to excuse the misses executed in the search for the holy grail of a great forehand, while this gene's evil twin mentally castigates us for not hitting outright winners with our backhands, even if it's only 1 out of 10 times.
Humans. Go figure.
2. Pete, I believe you're absolutely right that we tend to play against players of our own level, and that foot speed should therefore not be an issue. However most people don't ever really run on a tennis court, or at least are looking to minimize it (no offense intended to anyone, merely an observation). Consequently, a strategy that requires *more* running is not one that gets much consideration.
3. There have been some studies (sorry, no attribution) suggesting that better forehands or backhands are related to which eye is dominant, or possibly (my theory) which leg. Example: if someone's right-handed, and their left eye is dominant, then their dominant eye is closer to the ball as it approaches on a forehand and their forehand is likely to be the better of their strokes.
Similarly, if their right leg is dominant they may be more comfortable moving it rather than their left leg, and so it's easier for them to get set for forehands than backhands, which for a right-handed person would mean picking up your dominant leg and depending on your subordinate leg. Since this is my theory, I'll offer my only bit of substantiation: most roller rinks and ice rinks operate in a counter-clockwise direction. I believe it's because most people are right leg dominant, and prefer keeping their subordinate, weaker left leg constantly in safe contact with the ground, pushing off with their stronger and more confident right legs, resulting in a counter-clockwise circle.
4. "The interesting question, philosophically, is whether the extraordinarily successful game Moya developed in order to maximize his chances of winning (as opposed to looking great) is - or isn't - also the most appealing and satisfying game he can possibly play.
That is, does a successful player by definition wind up with the most appealing game (if not necessarily the prettiest, because that's considerably more subjective) available to him or her?...snip...There's a word for guys, or girls, like that: Winner."
Metaphysically speaking, what the successful players winds up with is the game that most often attains, for them, the goal of their true motivation, the need to win. The game which appeals to them most is that which garners them the most wins. And they have no apologies for that.
Which is why the hated pushers of the world aren't ashamed, embarrassed or apologetic. In fact they're all too often basking in their own smug self-satisfaction. After a win, of course. |
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Posted by Schwab |
03/06/2008 at 09:06 PM |
Bryans break Hewitt again on a deciding point to lead 5-3 and now are serving for the set. Bob did a great defensive lob on a good placed volley by Hewitt and Guccione blew the OH.
Bryans held at love to win the set 6-3. |
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Posted by Schwab |
03/06/2008 at 09:16 PM |
Bryans had 3 chances to break at 15-40 but Guccione served some bombs to hold serve for the Aussies. Aussies won 1st game in set 2.
Aussie breaks at 15 as Bob hit a FH long.
Aussie holds at love capped off by a Hewitt ace.
Bryans to serve at 6-3,0-3. |
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Posted by Schwab |
03/06/2008 at 09:26 PM |
Bryans held at love.
Wasted challenge by Bryans on a Guccione ace as the Aussies hold at 30.
As the 2nd set progresses, I have to favor the Aussies to win in the supertiebreak as Hewitt is returning well and Guccione is serving great.
Bryans held at 30.
Aussies holds at love.
Bryans to serve to hang in the set as they lead 6-3,2-5. |
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Posted by TennisChica |
03/06/2008 at 09:32 PM |
Schwab, you are a good match caller. I found exhausting this afternoon and had a headache afterwards. How do you do it?
Hewitt looks so tiny next Guccione. |
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Posted by Schwab |
03/06/2008 at 09:32 PM |
Good challenge by Hewitt on the Bryans serve but the ball was in by a few inches as the Bryans hold at 30 thanks to well placed volley by Mike barely out of Hewitt's reach.
Aussies to serve for the set.
Aussies holds at love to take the set 6-2.
Supertiebreak to decide the match
A = Guccione and Hewitt
B = Bob and Mike Bryan
Guccione/Hewitt is tied with the Bryans at 3-6,6-2.
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Posted by Aussie Ange |
03/06/2008 at 09:34 PM |
Schwab you have found your calling so to speak. Go The Gooch. |
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Posted by Yummy Prince Fed - Still No. 1 |
03/06/2008 at 09:35 PM |
Aussie Ange thanks for the words of congrats but I actually lost. The match call highlight reel that I posted was the one game that I won - LOL |
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Posted by Tim (wake up Fed!) |
03/06/2008 at 09:42 PM |
Im so bad and un-pc but i find the Bryans tedious beyond words... too bad for the Aussies! |
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Posted by codepoke |
03/06/2008 at 09:43 PM |
Skip1515,
> Metaphysically speaking, what the successful players winds up with is the game that most often attains, for them, the goal of their true motivation, the need to win.
Tautologize much? :-)
No one ever thinks about us heart-bound romantics who would still like to win once in a while? Well, I guess Pete thought about us long enough to try to counsel us to "get over ourselves."
I'm getting there. I'm getting there!
First I had to give up on my old wooden racket game. Maybe someday I'll even give up on the dream of a "backhand weapon." After a couple hours of meditation, I think I may even give this a shot. Some time soon, I'll be in a losing match, and I'll for sure try running around everything I can, and see whether that turns things around for me. |
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Posted by Schwab |
03/06/2008 at 09:43 PM |
B 1-0 as return sails long
1-1 as defensive lob sails long
A 2-1 with a good volley by Guccione
2-2 as Bryans hit a winner down the center
B 3-2 as Hewitt hit FH long
3-3 as Bryans hit long after good volley by Hewitt
B 4-3 as Bob Bryan sailed passing shot by the Aussies from deep corner
B 5-3 as Aussies hit return in net
B 5-4 as Aussies made good return that Bryans hit long
5-5 as Guccione get a service winner that Bryans can't handle
A 6-5 as Guccione got a good serve and hit the Bryans after the return
6-6 as Bryans did a volley at the net
B 7-6 as Bryans did a volley at net after good serve
7-7 as Bryans return long
B 8-7 as Guccione netted volley
B 9-7 as Mike Bryan put away a volley after Bob stretch Guccione wide on his serve
Bryans win 6-3,3-6,10-7 as Hewitt hit the return in the net.
Baghdatis/Ginepri up shortly on TC. This was an entertaining doubles match.
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Posted by Aussie Ange |
03/06/2008 at 09:43 PM |
Woopsie. I seem to have that problem a lot YPF at not reading posts and scorelines properly, as I usually do it first thing in the morning and my eyes are not fully open. |
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Posted by Schwab |
03/06/2008 at 09:48 PM |
TennisChica,
I need a lot of luck in typing match calls at home. It helps to have a 42" screen TV and my computer positioned correctly. Also, I do not need a lot of other noise surrounding me. |
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Posted by Sam |
03/06/2008 at 09:51 PM |
Schwab: You're such a diva. ;-) |
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Posted by TennisChica |
03/06/2008 at 09:52 PM |
Schwab, thanks for the match call. Good stuff and it seemed like a good one. |
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Posted by |
03/06/2008 at 09:53 PM |
OT alert: if anyone watches Celebrity Apprentice (I know, I know, its a guilty pleasure).
Now would be a good time to tune in on NBC. Its going to be a showdown between Piers and Omarosa. |
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Posted by TennisChica |
03/06/2008 at 09:54 PM |
oops, that was me at 9:53pm |
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Posted by Schwab |
03/06/2008 at 09:59 PM |
Sam,
Diva says that you need to give in to Andrew and Beckham and call in a coach for a certain Swiss guy especially if Pistol Pete wins Monday in a meaningless exo:)
Tennis Chica,
Omarosa is making her career being in NBC shows. Is it 'cuz she is a good "villain"? |
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Posted by Schwab |
03/06/2008 at 10:05 PM |
Baghdatis and Ginepri are now entering the court as TC goes to a break. |
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