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The Parisian Slide
Posted 04/23/2008 @ 1 :43 PM

Phpdbzno3pm_2

Okay, I promise you that in my last post, I did not throw out that line about success on clay having more to do with "personal style" than technique, or training. I'll also be the first to admit that I was hardly surprised when some of our most astute and faithful posters rose to the bait with as much vim as the brown trout here in the northeast are now rising to newly hatched mayflies. So I'm going to zero in on that subject, and some of the issues raised by my able critics and friends.

Todd and in Charge cut to the chase, as is his habit, with this comment:

I want to pick up on this intriguing comment from Pete:

"The bottom-line is that doing well on clay, even the red clay of Europe, has less to do with training and experience than with style."

Hold on -- how does this jibe with Pete's oft-touted position that at the end of the day tennis is principally a mental game -- that the differences in technique and stroke formation etc. at the top level are small, and that what separates consistent winners from losers are grit, determination, and smart mental play?

Well, Todd's question is a bit tangential, but my feeling is that even more than reinforcing my point about the priority of style, it undermines the conventional wisdom that there is some "secret" or bio-mechanical basis for playing well on clay (although certain techniques, like the ability to slide, certainly help determine proficiency on clay). Give me a mentally tough player with attributes conducive to success on clay (most importantly, the confidence, willingness and ability to suspend the impulse to the quick resolution of any given point), and I'll show you a clay-court champion.

In fact, I'll give you the name of one (although there are more) such clay court champion: perennial Roland Garros contender and two-time champion, Jim Courier.

As a product of the Nick Bollettieri Tennis Academy (BTW, there are plenty of Har-Tru clay courts there), he played the quintessential hard court, Bollettieri-era game - a game I've periodically described as the New World Style. The trademarks are playing from inside the court (taking the ball on the rise, if you prefer), and eschewing the conventional attack on the net in favor of gaining court position to dictate with the forehand. You can always tell the New World Style because it ignores the measured approach shot once employed by the old world serve-and-volley or even all-court player in favor of the outright winning placement or, at second-best, a placement so penetrating that even if it's returned, the next ball can easily be put away.

I think the distinction Todd's comment begs to have made is between "style" and "technique". They are two different things. Style grows out of the application of technique, and is more - or less - friendly to the different surfaces. For example, Pete Sampras's "style", which grew out of the way he chose to use his biggest weapon (the serve) simply never was friendly to clay. Andre Agassi's style, which grew out of the way he used his big forehand and wonderfully economical groundstrokes, was friendly to clay.

And one other note on the mental front: in 1998, Sampras beat clay-court expert Ramon Delgado in the quarterfinals of Atlanta, a tournament played on green Har-Tru clay. About two months later, Sampras and Delgado met again in the second round of Roland Garros. Sampras looked like a fish flopping around on the dusty clay the whole way as he lost in straight sets. The difference between green and red clay, and the difference between playing in Atlanta and Paris, certainly played some role in the dramatic reversal.

My own feeling, though, is that the key factors were the uncertainty, frustration, and confusion Sampras by that time had started to feel on red clay - and specifically at Roland Garros. That lack of comfort and confidence, especially when combined with style-based liabilities, were simply more critical issues than whether or not Pete could slide, or squeeze enough service speed out of his arm. To this day, Sampras can't figure out why he never figured out clay.

Next, Embug weighed in:

I think training on red clay is important. Most Americans slide after hitting the ball, when European players who "grew up on clay" slide to the shot, which provides the split-second timing necessary for balance and recovery. With newer strings and racquet technology players can turn a clay-court encounter into a hard-court slug fest; however, the delicate touch shots and intrinsic timing when on clay still leaves Americans in the dust no matter how diligently they try to force a different dynamic.

I see her point, but in all honesty, how many matches are decided by "delicate touch shots", and I don't really see how sliding into a ball calls on more "intrinsic timing" than hitting one on the run - if anything,  I would say it calls for less, simply because a player sliding to a shot is relatively still. This suggests an important and counter-intuitive point:  for all the long rallies and the stamina required to win on clay, the champions on faster surfaces may bring superior athletic qualities to the game for two related reasons: the game is faster, which always makes it harder, and more balls have to be hit while on the run.

Why is Rafael Nadal so much better on fast courts than was his fellow red-clay icon, Guillermo Vilas?  Because Nasdal is twice the athlete. And note that as good as Vilas was on clay, record-wise, he only won at Roland Garros once and never came within shouting distance of a Wimbledon final. Sold clay-court technique, which is based on repetition and stroke consistency simply isn't at the apex of the champion's pyramid.

This, from Slice 'n Dice, responding to Embug:

Kudos for saying it perfectly. It's all about the feet on the clay. Movement, balance, and sliding are crucial to being able to compete on it, and as you pointed out, the best clay court players slide "to" strike the ball, as opposed to sliding "after" striking the ball.

Courier Slice knows his stuff, and if we limit the discussion to technque and bio-mechanics, I agree with him up to a point - the point where I read the most irritating word in the clay-court lexicon: sliding. I've had it up to here with sliding. I hate the very idea of sliding any more, because it's such an overrated aspect of the clay-court game. Sliding is useful, but at some point it becomes the equivalent of fishtailing out of turn three (for you legions of NASCAR fans out there. . .). It becomes counter-productive - an extraneous, show-offy, silly flourish.

Richard Gasquet ought to be a big slider. Emilio Sanchez was a big slider. The dude would go sailing halfway across the red clay of the Court Centrale like freakin' Kristi Yamaguchi, chest all puffed out, chin thrust forward, looking for all the world like the figurehead on the prow of the lead ship in the Spanish armada. But does it ever occur to anyone intoxicated by the Parisian (as opposed to the Cuban) Slide that the technique is a stop-start action that inherently takes too much of the one thing that is usually in already short supply for a tennis player in a tough match - time?

Everyone who plays for a reasonable stretch of time on clay ends up sliding; it's a natural reaction, not the tennis eqivalent of a triple-toe-loop (or whatever the hail it is), which is why it's so easily abused and turned into a parlor trick. If you divided clay-court players into sliders and non-sliders (meaning those who seem to rely on the technique as an intrinsic part of their clay-court physical vocabulary, rather than something they do as the situation demands), I'll take the non-sliders any day.

I think the best non-slider on the tour today is Rafael Nadal (let's all watch him closely next time to see just how much sliding he really does; maybe I'll change my mind). Almost all the successful American players (on clay) were non-sliders, including Jimmy Connors. Ivan Lendl, Mr. All Business, wasn't a big slider, either.

Skip 1515 weighed in with this comment:

The issue of movement on red clay is surely one that affects the American men, but to my mind the real issue is what Robin's called shot tolerance: the ability to withstand the pressure (boredom?) of multiple 20 ball rallies. Someone like Roddick can play well enough for 4 matches that this doesn't become an issue, but faced with 7 matches against players who live on a diet of patience pills eventually catches up with you if you aren't equally committed to running a marathon every point.

I agree with Skip here, and a hat tip to Robin for that wonderful term, "shot tolerance."  This is style, along with a healthy dose of mental toughness, really come into play. The most successful gringo clay-court players always had shot tolerance no matter how what surface they played on. They had the tools, as well as the mentality, to avoid being unnerved or discouraged by the doomsday stroking machines who enjoy their moment in the sun during the clay-court season.

In fact, I'd say that the major issue for creative players who aspire to win Roland Garros (first and foremost, Roger Federer) is having the confidence, patience, and will to survive long enough to challenge the very best players on clay. One thing that really is different in the clay game is that, to borrow an analogy from boxing, you not only have to fight the feature bout, you're more likely to have to fight all the guys on the undercard, too. Clay-court tennis is a great leveler, on which every potential  weakness will be probed.

This brings us right up hard against an irony:  putting too much emphasis on technique devalues the great distinction and most profound value of the clay-court game, because it suggests that having the magic bullet, technique-wise, is the key to winning on clay. If Bjorn Borg won Roland Garros almost in his sleep, almost every year he played, was it because he had superior clay-court technique? And if so, did he also have the technical magic bullet for winning on grass, which has such different demands? And if so, how could one player have both, and if he did, can there be such a radical difference between them? What was Borg, the greatest clay-court player of the Open era, or the greatest grass-court player of the Open era?

Bjorn Borg is the ultimate proof that technique is the most wildly overrated aspect of success in tennis.

Fleaman wrote:

Sliding or not, I still think it would be worth for someone like Roddick to actually play the entire Euro clay court season. Running around and playing tennis on clay is not that hard and definitely not impossible to learn, so by the time RG rolls around a top-10 hard court player with 4-5 weeks of Euro clay under his belt/shoes should be able to win a few rounds, maybe even get into the second week. Since there aren't any points to defend but many to gain, especially Roddick could benefit from this strategy as those points might get him to number 5 or even 4 in the world,which would come in real handy when trying to avoid the Federer quarter of the draw at Wimbledon and the USO later in the season. . .

I find this comment simple but germane. I was there when Roddick first played Roland Garros (2001). He hammered serve-and-volley expert Scott Draper in straight sets, toughed out a high-quality five-set win over former French Open champion Michael Chang, and he was giving as good as he got against Lleyton Hewitt when he had to retire with a foot injury (they were at 2-2 in the third set, after having split the first two). Watching Roddick that day, I thought he could do well on clay.

Wait! What about that backhand? What about the movement?

The answers are interrelated: players who aren't quite as athletic as some of their peers do well on clay (hence all those "clay-court experts") because clay gives them a little more of that precious commodity, time - time to draw a bead, which is critical to being able to dictate with the forehand. Roddick at the time had boundless energy, a zeal for competition even on red clay, and a powerful enough serve to employ his nuclear forehand almost at will. A lot may have changed since then, but Roddick's serve and forehand have not.

I'll leave the last word to Rolo Tomasssi:

Of course there are differences between playing on hard courts and clay courts, but are they as vast as the discrepancy between American success elsewhere and on clay? Of course, tennis being tennis, the fact is that if our players believe they can't win on clay, then the truth of the matter is that they won't, so perhaps it's a moot point, but I do wonder....

hear, hear! And here we are, back at the starting point of a discussion that is less about American players than about what it really takes to perform well on clay.

In his final comment on my last post, Todd wrote:

My contention is the following: that in today's modern game, you are better served learning the fundamentals on red clay -- preferably in Spain or maybe South America, where you can then adjust your game and play acceptably on all surfaces. Americans learning on practice courts here in the States, even at places like Bradenton, wind up for the most part with Tommy Haas-like results on most surfaces, hard courts being their strength, red dirt being a major deficit, Wimby being somewhat neutral.

It's a valid point - if you agree with the premise. But then, how come the rankings aren't dominated by Spanish or South American players, or those who trained there? I think it's because even if you develop your game on clay,  personal style eventually trumps all. That's why Stefan Edberg and Boris Becker became attacking players, despite having been raised on clay, and that's why Roger Federer plays so differently from Rafael Nadal, despite also spending his formative years on similar red dirt.

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Comments

Isn't the key to sliding into the shot rather than after the timing it allows to recover to the center of the court? Sliding after you hit the shot leaves you less recovery time--you have to stop your momentum, maintain balance, and change direction, and the ball's already nearly struck by your opponent.

Also, discussions about sliding seem to imply that players who slide do it for every single shot every time. That certainly isn't the case. It's the times that they do slide that make the difference, and if you're better at sliding, you're going to win more of those points. Perhaps that's the difference between a good and great clay-courter--and why Roddick could conceivably make the quarters in Paris someday, but probably go no further...

Maybe I'll just leave all the comments here. Ryan, what do you have to say about that?

I'm not so sure that's a good idea. Surely someone will be here to crash the party soon.

I'm lonely...

Pete, I don't think anyone reads your blogs anymore.

Where's the bartender? I'll have another, please. Yes, start a tab.

I haven't had time to fully digest the post yet, but I feel the need to reassure Ryan that he's not alone.... thanks for including my comment (and in such good company, Pete)... more later, as pressing deadlines beckon...

Ryan - Yes, yes, yes!!!!

And Pete - No no, no!!!!

We're talking about sliding, not slipping. So forget the fish-tailing analogy. It's quaint but wrong-headed. If you cannot perfect the art (nay, science) of sliding INTO your shot, such that you are perfectly poised to, or better yet, already beginning you, recover and prepare for your next shot (a la Nadal, by the way), you are going to end up with inefficient movement, whcih will drain you physically and take you well out of position often.

Yes, Todd and others make very good points about shot tolerance, will to stay IN the point as opposed to trying to END it too soon, etc. But if you cannot move with the utmost of efficiency out there, you are doomed.

Why don't Spaniards and South Americans dominate the tour? Well, if you mererly look at the numbers in the top 50, you might easily conclude that they DO. But the reason they haven't dominated the top spot(s) is that the majority of the season is not played on clay. The majority of the tournaments throughout the year are played on hard court.

Bartender... make that two, please! LOL, Ryan!!!!

Slice welcome!

Pretty amazing that Andre was able to win in Paris in '99 with virtually no sliding. I think those days are over--the top players play with just too much spin that you're going to get stretched out inevitably.

Remember that point in the '06 final, Nadal up 5-4, 30-30, and Roger played jaw-dropping defense to win the point? There's no way he's winning that point without the slide.

I agree with Pete completely. Sliding is a horrible trend developed mainly through a zest by players for personal flare. Much in the same way that we see every tour player out there now employing the "buggy whip" forehand which Nadal made famous 3-4 years ago. Some good clay courters have learned to incorporate sliding (Nadal) into their games whereas others (Federer, arguably the 2nd best clay courter in the world) slide scarcely. Also, when a player truly does not know how to slide correctly, it takes away from their shot more than it actually helps because the player cannot plant their feet and drive through the ball (see Serena Williams). The key to clay, in my opinion, is to simply repeat whatever makes a player succesful on a hard court. Sure, clay has some very obvious differences but quick feet and good movement will always be effective on any surface.

Serve14, I urge you to pass along your wisdom to the aforementioned Mr. Sampras...

Great clay courters do not slide to every shot as Ryan said, they do it just when it is necessary like to reach for a drop shot. But if you are a master of defense-counterattack like Rafa (or Coria in the past) clay works to your advantage ... I checked the 2005 finals between Nadal and Coria and it is obvious that they just use the clay to their advantage, and that they seldom loose a point there, because of their speed, tremendous defense, and skills to hit shots on the run from both sides. Their play on clay is just flawless, a pleasure to watch (especially Coria´s). Of course in the long run, it is better to be Nalbandian or Roger, who rely on their court positioning, anticipation and strokes to win matches, an all court game.

Aw, Ryan, at least I have you. . .

And Slice - if those guys don't dominate, why would you want to develop a player on clay and saddle him with the same albatross?

I'm hoping all the old guard joins everyone else in this one. Bartender! Another drink for my pal Ryan! And make it a triple. . .

While I don't recall that exact point, Ryan, you and I are definitely in the same choir on this one. Any serious playing on the three varieties of clay (the American Har-Tru or composition, the American red clay [which is real clay], and the European crushed brick) quickly reveals who knows how to move efficiently and who does not. Who is slipping and who is sliding?

As for speed of shot. Let's face it: at the professonal level, most of ther men have tremendous hands and can handle the pace quite well. It still boils down to who can cover the court the best and who can put his opponent in the worst positions. Except for those rare shotmakers like Sampras (with the precision serve) and Edberg(with the pinpoint volleys), it's still a game won with your feet and your head.

Thanks Pete! But don't get me too sauced, I'm playing a match myself today in an hour!

Aw hell, screw it, bring 'em on. I'll swing for the fences.

I play on clay and don't slide - make mine a g&t please lol.

Pete, according to this month's TENNIS magazine's rankings (as of March 3, 2008), 11 of the top 40 men are from either Spain or Argentina. If you look at Europe and South American players, excluding Russia, Czech Republic as former Eastern Bloc countries, 33 of the 40 are represented. Sounds a bit like dominance to me!!!

Slice, the point used to be on youtube, but now I can't find it.

OK, need to take an online quiz and then get ready for my match. I'm looking forward to reading others' thoughts on this topic. Ciao.

(And I promise I'm OK to drive. :) )

Screeeeech. . . CRASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Welcome to Pete's Bar, Kate!

I do a lot of slipping on the stuff myself... make mine a Scotch on the rocks, with a lemon twist!

Ditto Rolo's comments, Pete. Excellent insight on the difference between technique and style. And what a phrase -- "shot tolerance." I wish I had more of that.

Here's the heart of it for me:

"In fact, I'd say that the major issue for creative players who aspire to win Roland Garros (first and foremost, Roger Federer) is having the confidence, patience, and will to survive long enough to challenge the very best players on clay. One thing that really is different in the clay game is that, to borrow an analogy from boxing, you not only have to fight the feature bout, you're more likely to have to fight all the guys on the undercard, too. Clay-court tennis is a great leveler, on which every potential weakness will be probed."

So, in that sense, is a clay court tournament the most mentally taxing to a top player? I think you can credibly argue that it is. Those who prevail must have shot tolerance, patience, confidence, and will.

Is it the most physically demanding, as well? That's an easy one.

And Slice is right -- the rotating top 50 does seem Spaniard and South American-heavy to me, and has been for most of the decade.

One word on "attacking" players and style. You most certainly can and great players do "attack" on clay. It just looks different than blasting 150 mile an hour serves for a couple of sets; it is bravado of a different sort. Having watched Davydenko plow through the top players at Key Biscayne, now that I think of it, it kinda looks like that.

Allez Roland Garros!

Edberg won with his hands and in spite of his footwork? Edberg had perhaps the lightest feet I have ever seen on a tennis court. His movement was impeccable and, for my money, the chief reason he was so great. I don’t think he would have been in position to make those pinpoint volleys if his feet weren’t otherworldly. Edberg, perhaps more than most, won with his feet and head. That dude could float.

One of the things such discussions as this force us to do is to focus in on something that might otherwise seem trivial or just one of several factors of importance or interest. ANd so it is with this sliding business. In my mind it is not THE MOST CRITICAL FACTOR in determining who will be a great clay-court player and who will be merely mediocre. But it certainly plays a role. WHat I WOULD and DO SAY, is that MOVEMENT (and by this I mean speed, footwork, balance, agility, anticipation, court positioning) is the key determinant. AFTER shot selection, execution, and conditioning, of course. LOL!!!!

*Sliding is useful, but at some point.....It becomes counter-productive - an extraneous, show-offy, silly flourish.*

Someone should forward this bit to Gael's agent with instructions that he (Gael not the agent) tattoo this on a bicep or something.

Nice article.

In Defense of... I knew as soon as I hit the 'Post' button I'd regret bringing up Edberg's name. Of course, and you are dead right, he was an amazing mover. Fast, quick, light, agile, perfectly balanced. And yes, these qualities certainly enabled him to make those great volleys. Hail, it may be due to his footwork and great movement that he had any kind of volley at all. I merely was pointing out his singular shot-making ability. And it happened to be his volleys. One could also argue quite well that were it not for such a great kick serve, he wouldn't have been in as deep to make those first volleys.

Let's also not forget how fast on his feet that other famous Pete was. He may not have been as light as Edberg, but that dude could move.

It's all interconnected... as are we all at Pete's Bar! Grab a stool and have a drink!

Thank you, Mrs. Santa, for excepting that line from Pete's post, because I had nearly forgotten what had raised my hackles so.

An "extraneous, show-offy, silly flourish"?

Now that's either just the alcolhol talking or it's intended to egg on those of us who think the slide is an important aspect of playing in the dirt.

I recall very well climbing up to the top of a long ladder and then sitting down on this shiny metal ramp and letting go, only to slide as fast as I could go and land o my butt in the dirt. Bartender, one more round for everybody!

"WHat I WOULD and DO SAY, is that MOVEMENT (and by this I mean speed, footwork, balance, agility, anticipation, court positioning) is the key determinant."

Apparently Federer said that what makes Nadal so tough on clay is not so much his forehand but his incredible movement. Clay does seem to expose poor movers. But it also tends to forgive slow movers who have good balance. So I think sliding is just a stylistic flourish. Whatever helps a tennis player move better and keep his balance and traction is what he should use.

Isn't another differentiator on clay simple endurance?

I don't believe there is any tournament more demanding than playing five-set matches in 90 degrees, with long baseline rallies at the French. McEnroe lost the final to Lendl in part because he totally ran out of gas after two sets. Sampras had challenges with stamina. Borg, Villas -- never.

As for Villas v.s. Rafa at Wimbledon, in fairness to Villas back then Wimbledon was a grass-court tournament, now it's more of another dirt court dominated by baseline rallies.


Hey there, Ryan, you doing okay? Ryan? Ryan!! Oh well, pour him another one anyway.... *urp*

Gentlemen,

Re: SHOT TOLERANCE. Thanks for the credit, but I was trained as a research psychologist to cite my sources and I got it from Eliot Telscher's article on John Yandell's tennisplayer.net. Here is part of what Eliot says.

When I was playing professional tennis, I developed a concept that helped me understand the games of others players, and how I might be able to beat them. That concept is Shot Tolerance.

This was in the days you had to do some things for yourself. So I would go out and watch matches and I would just count. What I found was that all players have a limit beyond which they don't want to play the point anymore. That point is their Shot Tolerance.

I would watch matches, and I would count and I would see that this guy's shot tolerance is between these numbers. I found there was some real consistency to it. It was kind of amazing actually.

Relative Tolerance

What I found was that certain players had a higher shot tolerance than I did. So against them I knew I was going to have to find a way to do something. There were other players I studied that I found had a lower shot tolerance than I did. So I knew, as long as I stayed in long enough, in the end I would win because they would miss.

One example where this worked for me was against a player named Johann Kriek. He was a very dangerous player who hit the ball early, was very fast, a great shot maker, a top ten player, but had a low shot tolerance. I was lucky enough to beat him all three times we played. I knew he was going to hit his share of winners, but I knew if I stayed in long enough and made him play enough balls, he would miss. The longer the points, the better it was for me.

When we walked on the court, there were guys I played who I know were thinking, "I don't want to hit this many balls." They walked on the court hating that. And, you know, that was an edge, knowing that my shot tolerance was better than most of the people that I played. They'd start missing before the match started.

On the other hand, when I played some of the clay courters where I felt their shot tolerance was higher, I would try to hurt them very early in the point. I would attack off the second serve. As the rallies got longer, it became harder and harder to create something. So I would try to do it earlier.

If had to play Ivan Lendl, there was no way my shot tolerance was that high. So I had to try to create something, and that's what made him so difficult. It was very hard to create something against him. He hit the ball very deep, and very solidly, and he was very fit. He didn't miss. He would hurt you if you hit short. It was very hard to find a way to get him to make unforced errors.

Shot Tolerance and Andre Agassi

I think shot tolerance was a big part of what Brad Gilbert did for Andre Agassi. I played Andre at the end of my career, and actually I felt he was wild. I actually felt if I could hit enough balls back, I could beat him. I just couldn't do it. I felt he was not patient and he would go for winners very early in the point.

And I think that's what Brad taught him. You don't have to win every point. You cannot win every single point. You have to give your opponent a chance to lose. So Andre became more consistent. He learned to play points. He learned to move people around. He stopped trying to end the point so quickly. And this is the same thing Brad seems to be doing for Andy Murray.

Did Nadal's shot tolerance get under Roger's skin?
As big as everybody's hitting the ball, look at the people that are winning. Roger Federer makes very few errors, but I think that his shot tolerance, at least on clay, is less than Rafael Nadal. I think it's one of the things that got to him a little bit this year. In those big clay court finals, Nadal knew he could just play the way he normally plays, and it was good enough, because his shot tolerance is higher. That turned out to be a little different on grass, or on an indoor court in Shanghai.

If a player hits his shot tolerance it doesn't matter who he or she is, even if it's Roger Federer or Justine Henin-Hardenne. Suddenly they'll hit a drop shot from four feet behind the baseline. Or they'll go for some absurd winner. Or they'll make a surprising error on a relatively easy ball in the middle of the court. They don't want to hit any more balls.

This point is going to end on this shot, no matter what, one way or the other. They have reached the end of their shot tolerance. Some people hit their shot tolerance at five or six balls. Others go into the 30's and 40's. But it's the same effect no matter when it happens.

yes JustaFan, but wouldn't you agree that movement is the key to winning on all surfaces - and part of my post argues that if anything, clay can help "poor" movers, by giving them time.

Ok ok -- oh hail, I have to play later too -- a Gibson, straight up.

Robin -

Incredible? Thanks for sharing. I couldn't help but think opf Agassi early in Telscher's discourse. Lo and behold, he refers to Agassi.

I am thinking aloud here that "shot tolerance" -- a very real thing, I believe, as I experience what Telscher describes myself often -- is inextricably bound to, and perhaps even dependent on, conditioning. Particularly aerobic or anaerobic. Not so much the legs, though it could be. I think it has more to do with how much capacity remains in your core, beginning with your lungs, to be able to make your best shot or put forth your best effort. Once you get very near to that limit, you suddenly have the irresistible urge to "pull the trigger."

It's a bit like seeing how long you can hold your breath while swimming under water. You get to about 90 seconds and suddenly, whether you actually could go for another 5 or 10 seconds or not, you come up gasping for air.

I think clay only seems to expose poor movers. What tends to be an outright winner on a faster surface is just an authoritative shot on clay. So, movement is less of a factor on faster surfaces.

The reason I glommed onto the term SHOT TOLERANCE is that I have close to zero of it. Lack of it has plagued my whole career and now that I am developing some shot tolerance, but body has deteriorated to the point where it does not matter enough.

One thing I read into Pete's post is that shot tolerance has to be built on reality. In the case of Borg and Nadal, they both are extremely fit and fast and have groundstrokes with plenty of margin for error. As good as Vilas was on clay, if he hit 30 shots, Borg would hit 31. If Vilas hit 42, Borg would hit 43.

I think we saw Federer lose his shot tolerance in the middle of today's match and at the last moment, get it back. Early on, it was classic Roger against a pusher on clay and even though RRH got back plenty of "winners" due to the slow clay, Roger had another shot and ran through him. Then at love-30 in the first game of second set, Roger got careless or impatient and gave away an easy return and before you knew it, he was way off and RRh was making shots out of his mind (returning right at Roger's feet and outguessing him at a couple of exchanges at the net). Almost a disaster.

In spite of Roger's fragility and lack of shot tolerance, I think he deserves major courage award. He was facing the worst loss of the last 5 years at precisely the time when everyone is writing him off. I don't know how he righted the ship given what he had done to himself.

One more thing I want to propose. One factor that tends to reduce one's shot tolerance is believing that he is much better than the opponent. So, here it is. You are #1 and he is #137. You just won 6-1 so you have verified that you are much better. And then, all of a sudden, he is playing well and you are not. "How can this be? How in the hail can this nonentity be actually beating me and doing it handily?"

Regardless of our level of play, we all know how hard it is to beat someone you are supposed to beat, someone you have beaten easily before.

We all know how we write scripts (e.g., "I beat James in straight sets." "I play close matches against Fred, but he usually bests me in 3." and so on). Many of us decide during warmup whether we will win or lose (I know I have to my peril). Often the worst thing to do is to win the first set easily by winning all the pivotal points. Then when a couple of points go against you in the second set it is much worse because "I am SOOO much better than this guy."

Incidentally, the first time I even say RRH on a court was a year or two ago, They switched to his match with Safin. Marat had won the first set 6-0, then lost the second 6-7. Guess who won in a breaker in the third? RRH. I think we all have seen Safin's shot tolerance go walkabout in too many matches. He killed the guy in the first set and then the points became stickier and stickier.

As I often say, "Don't write scripts."

We play sports to find out. Otherwise let the ocmputer send in the results. No Lake Placid, no Cassius Clay beating Sonny Liston, and so on.

Slow the court enough and it gives an edge to the guy or gal who can generate great angles and use the entire court, punishing the opponent's legs and lungs and opening up opportunities to strike the occasional winner.

On a faster surface, the ability to execute the one-swing winner is enhanced, as the ball goes through the court more rapidly. It's also because, as the ball comes off the court more rapidly, it has more kinetic energy, so that when the fast-surface expet hits that ball early he is gaining a time advantage on his end and one at the other end as the ball is returned faster and then goes through the court faster. It's a double-whammy.

Pete Sampras always preferred a relatively slow, or medium-fast, hard court to a really fast hard court (though I think he preferred the grass at Wimbledon most!). I think that was because it gave him a bit more time to run down and set up for shots that would otherwise cause him to scramble after. His serve was so precise that it didn;t really mater that much whether it was a super-fast or a medium-fast court. But duriing groundstroke exchanges, he didn't feel as rushed so he coul set up for his big-swinging forehands.

Robin, have a drink... you're making too much sense!

Actually, we've all been there. We're up 5-2, sering for the set, when we go for too much too soon a couple of times trying drive the nail in our opponent's coffin. Now it's Love-30 and things look much different, just because we hadn't the patience, the shot tolerance, the gamer attitude, to fight for every point. And here at Love-30 we must be careful. Careful not to lose our serve and let our opponent back into the set, and match. Careful that if he breaks, and holds, then we're serving for the set at 5-4, and the old apple might just find its way into our throats. Careful that we don't get too careful trying to overcorrect our previous numbskulled ways like a driver nodding off the sleep at the wheel for an instant and going onto the choulder, then overcorrecting and ending up in the ditch in the median.

As these guys all have pretty solid technique, I do think playing style has a major influence. That style is a factor of training, prevailing local(or national) approach, facilities, peers and perhaps underestimated - each players own personality.

With these tools each player brings their best to the court and goes after it. I think most of these guys have an A game and the B is a couple of notches lower. That is not to say they can't adjust within their main approach - the old trying to play their game applies for the most part.

Some players (and it is hard to argue it is not influenced by geography) are simply more confortable on clay. Completely with movement, bounces, lines, color and a style that allows them to understand staying in the point and picking their spot. A serve built on high 1st % and good placement rather than aces.

So while the slide is a part of the movement, I agree it is hardly the most important - rather one bit - that is overshadowed by the players style and particular psychological make up.

At the end of the day a tennis match is trying to make the other guy play your game rather than the the other way around. Clay simply favors some types of games more than others althought it does not, in itself, determine the outcome as others suggest.

Slice, you have that mentally tortuous journey down pat. I am sure from bitter experience.

I used to say that my tennis matches were like a bad soap opera with the ups and downs. I tried playing with a frontal lobotomy but could not find one that was reversible. At least I learned to not compose my victory speech when I was up 4-1 in the first.

Back to your fine post, Pete.

"What was Borg, the greatest clay-court player of the Open era, or the greatest grass-court player of the Open era?

Bjorn Borg is the ultimate proof that technique is the most wildly overrated aspect of success in tennis."

YES, emphastically yes!! And why was Borg so successful on the clay at Roland Garros AND on the grass at Wimbledon (even before they took out the grass and put in rye)? 1. MOVEMENT. 2. SHOT TOLERANCE. 3. COUNTERPUNCHING ABILITY. 4. WILL. And 5. HE WAS AN ALIEN FROM ANOTHER PLANET THAT HAD NO AIR.

Let's face it: The man could fly. He was so fast and fit and had such a great counter-attack and had such an endbending will (sound like anyone we know today?) that he was like playing against a wall. No one had the shot tolerance or the goods, until McEnroe came along with those amazing kamakazi volleys and that lefty can-opener serve, to put a dent in his armor. Or even make him breathe hard.

Federer used to lok like that (in '05 and '06). There's something that happens to our shot tolerance as we begin to feel the pressure from being beaten a few times by the same blokes. Now everyone senses there's blood in the water, and the sight of all those marauding sharks makes us nervous and a little too trigger-happy.

Teltscher's shot tolerance theory is a very astute observation.
Robin's corellary is equally astute.

One thing I think we are seeing with Federer, which we certainly saw with Sampras, was that great players will have a certain shot tolerance at majors and a different, lower tolerance at lesser events as their careers progress. In only makes sense. If it really does not matter if you win Estoril (and for guys like Federer and Nadal it does not, that's for sure) then what incentive to stay out there all day?

This is why the predictions of how Nadal is so young and will dominate the entire tour are likely wrong. Nadal is going to be just as bored staying out there all day this year or perhaps next year as any other champion.

Shot tolerance almost explains Borg. After a certain number of years, it was "enough already."

Its one thing to have the ability to hang in there all day, its quite another to feel it is worth it.

pete, no need to re watch rafa, he doesn't need to slide that much since he's allways in position to hit the shot, well almost ;)
i was rewatching rafa today, and after reading this comments, i think clay rewards the greatest and FAST movers in the game...
i saw him sliding on the run once on a bh passing winner, and he kept on sliding after hitting the shot, he knew that shot could not come back...
in fact, if you ask yourself when do i need to slide ??
the only answer it's when you are playind defense far back in the base line or going for a drop shot...
other wise sliding is simply not necessary !
if you need to slide, it's because you are late to hit the shot, so your timing to hit a shot is allready not boding well, since you will not make a big shot sliding up, unless it's a passing, the only shot that should not come back if well executed.

to control when you need to start sliding is probably the thing that players who grew up on clay don't need to think about, it's coming naturally... they feel it under they feet. players who grew up on hard still question themselves about it... imo.

robin, fascinating stuff about the shot tolerance...
i was watching ferrer-verdasco last week and there was no way for verdasco to keep going on long rallies... and he's one of the best spaniards on clay, ferrer was simply hitting back time and time again.
this morning against safin, it was even more obvious... but safin, could not find ways to shorten points...

FYI Safin's match with Ruben RH was in round of 32 at Rome 2006. Lasted 3 hours and Marat won 125 points to 114, but apparently used them all up in the first set.

I still think Borg got tired of playing tennis for 5 hours a day, running 5 miles a day, and sleeping 10 hours per night to sustain his shot tolerance. 11 straight years of that will get to anyone. Connors on the other hand practiced hard for about an hour and a half a day and stayed fresh much longer.

I don't think Borg had to do that but he apparently did as it was all he knew.

Robin - yes, I have been there on numerous occasions.

Here's a topic for you Pete: the many ways one can self-destruct, and its corollary, the ways we redem ourselves in the heat of battle.

It's funny how 90% or more of us homo sapiens play better when our backs are to the wall. Federer certainly showed his humanity today by first losing interest a little, letting things get out of control by not willing himself to fight and opening a window for his opponent to breathe (who then opened it wider and stuck his head out), and finally gritting his teeth and bearing down when he was at the brink and snatching victory from the jaws of defeat.

I've been at both extremes, I'm not too proud to admit. I've been up a set and 4-0 and lost, and on two or three occasions I've ben down a set and 5-1 or 5-2 with multiple match poits against me and turned it around and won. The former, while easier to do physically, was much harder to take. The latter seemed as though they unfolded quite naturally. Once I had established in my mind that wasn;t going to "lose" the match (my shot tolerance gene had switched on, I suppose) and my opponent was going to have to beat me with great shots from that moment forward, the points came rather easily and I found myself almost playing out a part or role that had been scripted in some maniac's dream.

It is always intersting to me how there are so many ways one can lose the match, outside of the actual playing of points. Robin pointed out one very common way: composiing our victory speech too soon (formerly known as counting our chickens before they hatch). There are a host of others. Like being intimidated by a player's history, ranking, status, stature, technique, speed, hairstyle, etc.

I'll have to compose something on this later for those TWibers interested.

dude pete sampras only had his serve. His forehand is average compared to pros these days. Any tom dick and harry cant do well on caly, to do well you need to be able to grind it out from the back court. Sampras didn't have the groundstrokes to do that. Agassi could rally with anyone anytime any place. Sampras was so under confident with his groundstrokes that he had to come to the net all the time. He knew he couldnt hang with the claycourters from the back.

The arguement is that the player with the best ability to move and slide on red clay will win the French Open?
In my opinion the ability to slide is a small percentage of the things needed to go through the entire French Open and win the title. All of the players in the draw are world class movers with the exeption of players that have made a living with one huge serve(quit a few of them?)
The most important factor being the players ability to fight for every single point like a mad-man, but for them to be under control enough to understand the geometry and court positioning of every single point.Not taking chances if those chances are not the highest of percentages in the players favor. On red clay you must play high percentage tennis without exeption.
There is really no possible way to over power other players on clay. You must move your opponent around the court. You must make the dirrection of your shot the most dangerous thing about it .

I think this is an interesting debate , but the change from red clay to grass at wimbledon shows that all of these players are athletic enough to learn how to slide and play on the clay then play on a new surface fast. The most difficult change is from high risk- low percentage -HUGE reward tennis game- too- low risk grind it out, move your opponenet around, on the court for five hours, shot placement, patients, finding out that this qualifier will not stop hitting to your weakness for rest of the day and you are going to have to grind it out or go home?

So to me it is a mentality of a boxer who won't go down that will win the french. If your thinking the best sliders will win? Look at Federers' sox ! They never seem to get any red clay on them?I think he could/will win this year .lol

Really fascinating observations from everyone on this thread. The shot tolerance notion seems so obvious when one thinks about it (as most great ideas do) and has a lot of explanatory value, both for pros and for serious recreational players.

Robin's advice on not writing scripts is something I learned the hard way over many infuriated hours on the court.

A related idea that I think Steve Tignor came up with is roughly as follows: No matter how discouraged you are in a match, remember that your opponent is usually only two or three points away from feeling the same way (and the converse is also important to keep in mind).

Back to clay and movement, I really wonder sometime what the effect of soccer is on this question. Pretty much all non-US male players grew up playing a lot of soccer, and I believe both Rafa and Fed were very talented players. I remember McEnroe saying years ago that playing soccer a lot as a kid was a key to his great footwork. One can obviously develop good footwork without soccer, but my guess is that it's much more helpful to one's tennis than (American) football, baseball (without a doubt), and even basketball.

Robin, et al,

Last year, some friends bought me a lesson with former pro doubles player Anne Hobbs for a birthday present. In the middle of the lesson, Anne waved me up to the net and said, "I learned a concept from Billie Jean King called Shot Threshold." Then she went on to describe exactly what Teltscher does. (Not saying this isn't Teltscher's "discovery," just that Anne heard it elsewhere.)

The dispiriting part of the conversation came next: "Your threshold is about 2," she said. "You really should work on that."

Ouch.

Another player to think about in this context is Seles. I've never seen a player (with the possible exception of Connors) who seemed to WANT to the ball more. She really had a hunger in every shot she hit when she was at her peak that was inspiring to see.

Robin, LOL
You, sir, are a natural-born grass-court player! ;)

Who overrates technique? I honestly hear 90% psychology coming from the commentators whenever I watch a match. 'He's gotten discouraged.' 'He's imposing his will.' 'That stroke was tentative'. As important as psychology undoubtedly is, I think the tendency, in the sources i am familiar with anyway, goes much too far in trying to explain everything by psychology.

A classic example is the refrain one hears about how in 2005-2007, people went into matches with Federer expecting to lose, and hence he couldn't be beaten. Maybe that was part of it. But it seems to me that as often or more often, the causation goes the other way. Because a player is playing badly, his confidence suffers. Because a player's tools put him at a disadvantage against his opponent, he goes into the match with the attitude that he cannot win.

Why, for example, is Rafa more succesful on clay than hardcourt? Is it because he is more confident? I'm sure he's more confident on clay, but that's not why he wins. He wins because his overall game is better suited to the surface. Hence his greater confidence.

Now, what does his overall game amount to? Lots of things, only some of which, I guess, are properly called 'technique'. His fitness and strength and footspeed and balance are a big part of it, and they aren't aspects of technique. But those things are an advantage on any surface. Probably fitness matters more on clay than other surfaces, but the rest are probably equally helpful no matter where you are. So aside from Nadal's excellent fitness, why is he so much better on clay? Well, yes, another factor is probably his 'shot tolerance', although I wonder whether that isn't better considered to be part of 'style'. But surely a big part of the explanation are the distinctive aspects of Nadal's technique, in particular the outrageous spin on his forehand. It is an advantage on any surface, but it is particularly advantageous on red clay, as has been mentioned many times.

A question though: what exactly is the difference between technique and style? Is style the choices you make on the court (so Murray's love of the drop shot is an aspect of his style)? What if you make 'choices' without thinking about them (so if Ancic is rallying from the baseline so much without really thinking about whether he's doing it too much or not enough, is that an aspect of his style)? Is style just those aspects of a player's game he or she has conscious control over? What about when a player wants to change his style, but finds it difficult (as Nadal has said he finds it difficult to play aggressively from the baseline, hard-court style)?

if one wants to look at how the French and clay is the odd man out here are some numbers from 1977 to 2006

French - 18 different winners - 11 only won French

Wimbledon - 13 different winners - 4 only won Wimbledon

USO - 14 different winners - 2 only won the USO

Aussie Open - 16 different winners - 5 only won the AO

I enjoyed reading what Eliot Telscher had to say. Thanks again, Robin, for sharing. One thing that struck me and sticks in my mind is the notion that not every point needs to be won.

Now, I know from plenty of experience, that sometimes good defense wins a lot of points, even most matches at the amateur level. But I've personally always tried to control the poin t and, even when in a defensive position, tried to turn that around so that I could dictate play and "win" the point either with an approach and volley/overhead, an outright winner from the baseline or just inside it, or a forced error from my opponent.

Perhaps I've been pushing too hard. If I look back at the tactically brilliant way Andre Agassi constructed points in the second half of his career -- gaining an edge early on from a court positioning perspective with a wide serve or a deep, wide groundstroke, and then moving his opponent around as a puppeteer would manipulate his marionette -- it seems that perhaps Agassi had found the perfect way to settle into a sort of neutral style, not going for broke, not even pressing the issue too much, but keeping the pressure on with a series of placements that, for him, were well within his ability to execute time and time again.

I'll have to work on that. In addition to my shot tolerance (a miserable six to eight now) and my sliding ... er, I mean movement.

This is one big juicy post !

Ok, here's my 0.02$ on it :

1) The sliding, as it is implied in the title :
=>> Sliding, is - to me, the ability to correctly judge where you will be intersecting the ball and hit it while almost finished slamming on the breaks, which allows you to recover.
And since clay gives you a better (read: longer) look at the ball, it certainly works out to advantage of those who can master it (Borg, Bruguera, Nadal, ...etc).

2) Technique was prevalent around most of the post, so here goes :
=>> It's more a matter of efficiency that style/technique. Jim Courrier had the most awful forehand I've seen, yet was so effective with it.
How many top pros have/had techniques we were told to never do - yet had winning ways with it (facing the net, closing the racquet face, ... blablabla).
If it works for you - do it ! If you can confuse your opponent because you weird technique is harder to predict - bonus.
McEnroe's extreme side-stanced serve & Seles' 2-handed strokes come to mind, there are many others.
{Of course others' had gorgeous clean, simple strokes for us to try to imitate : Edberg's backhand, Vitas Gerulaitis' forehand, Borg's serve, ..}.

But much of it, must be combined with character. Never a weak, non-tenacious player with ever win at RG. Some of those were underestimated (Y. Noah) but of course tennis is a sport of exceptions ... after all McEnroe was a 4 points away from winning on red clay with an attacking style.

Let the controversy begin ! (or continue ;-) )

This is great - Robin, Slice-n-Dice, Tokyo Tom, and Dunlop Maxply all weighing in on the same thread.

To follow up on Tokyo Tom's last post - Over the past 30 years, the following FO winners did not win or at least reach the final of another Slam - Muster, Gaudio, Costa, Gomez, Noah. During the same period, all of the Wimbledon winners aside from Krajicek reached another Slam final (Stich got to the USO and FO finals, Ivanisevic reached 3 other Wimbledon finals). For the USO during the same period, all of the winners at least reached another Slam final (Roddick is the only one who did not win more than one Slam).

If one wants to speak about countries:

Swedes won all four
US guys won all four
Swiss won three of four with only one guy
Russia won three of four missing Wimbly
Germans won three of four but no FO
South American Players won the US and French
Dutch won Wimbley and AO
French only won one FO
Spain only won the FO - but multiple times with multiple guys
Serbs won only Wimbley once
Czech won one
South Africa / US won one
Austrians won one
Lendl won three of the four - Eastern Europe - but is US now

I'm leaning toward the conviction that "shot tolerance" or "shot threshold" is more closely linked to physical and mental conditioning than to style.

From the physcial conditioning perspective, a player may be tempted or inclined to "pull the trigger" and bring the point to a rapid end due to a kind of minor fatigue or inability to breathe easy. This might cause him to consider it a lower risk to go for his shot NOW rather than later, when he has even fewer reserves in the tank.

From the mental conditioning perspective, all players develop sooner or later a set of tactics or series of shots that, when combined in a sequence, tend to put them in position (at least it is so perceived) to win the point. Once a player has exhausted his repertoire, as such, he may again be tempted to go for a winner, having no other ideas or tactics up his sleeve. Call it boredom, if you like. I think of it as mental fatigue or exhaustion.

Looking at the Grand Slam stats really points to exceptional individuals as players can win these things over time.

As to the surface discussion = one could as easily ask why the Spanish players can only win on clay as why the US players do so poorly on that surface.

Why the Swedes, so dominant earlier have not won a FO since '88.
These thing can change and move around, with a country like Switzerland coming out of nowhere with one guy to be one of the three countries to win all four. If we looked at an older period the Aussies would feature more in the numbers.

sorry - Swiss win three not four -- and numbers for county same time span 1977-2006

While a valid and logical concept, I think shot threshold should not be thought of as a "more the merrier" kind of a thing. In most cases there is an optimal

value for this - beyond which one tends to become a grinder who can succeed in some cases but often fails to take advantage of situations. To a large extent

this explains the inability of many "clay courters" to succeed on faster courts. I think Pete's comment about "playing styles" explains it well. Some players have a style that relies highly on their high shot threshold (aka grinders), while others have style that is based on their ability to finish

the point at any time (aka shot makers).

IMHO, although playing style explains a lot about a players success/failure in certain types (faster courts vs. slower courts) of matches, one cannot wrte

off the importance of technique/ability. It is the belief in one's technique that allows the grinders to have the confidence to grind it out and shot makers

the ability to blow others off the court. To some extent one can say that TMF's lack of confidence in his backhand is lowering his shot threshold on clay

(on other surfaces it is less of an issue because of his shot making ability). And the reverse is true for Nadal (his lack of confidence in shot making makes

him play too defensively on faster courts). As Agassi said about his success in the late 90s - the thing that made him calm was the belief that his best was good enough. This allows one to play the game/adapt one's style to the condition.

oh my - now this post is going to require putting my feet up and pouring a GE! (Er, not in that order...!) Can't wait to get home, reread and browse through the comments.

Some athletic players even slide on hard court - I notice Novak can do it.

I think sliding on hard court might hurt ya....

Pete, you're American, it's okay, I understand... the clay confuses you.

Tokyo Tom,
In your list of countries, if you refer to Goran's Wimbley win, he is Croatian. Australia is worth mentioning, although I don't know the stats. Depending on the time period they could be up with the Swedes.

Clay rewards defense.

For those who can defend all day, or for those with a technically gifted backhand, clay neutralizes the attacking game. Faster courts neutralizes defense. Of all the major American champions, few have had a better backhand than forehand, and of those few, they were all adept on clay. Think of Federer/Nadal, and a post Pete wrote awhile back about the reemergence (and re-importance) of the two hander. Nadal's backhand, while not the most technically proficient of the current champions, is certainly one of the most technically gifted. He can create pace and counter-punch much easier off his backhand side than can Federer, as well as change directions more forcefully. His angles are a little more acute than Federer's, and of course his spin is singularly unique. But more than Nadal, Kuerten, Bruguera, and Courier all had better backhands (hence better defense) than forehands. A few notable exceptions in Moya and JC Ferrero, but their relative lack of success outside of RG reinforces the notion. They both should have been mutiple RG champions at least. But both had attacking games that actually translated well too faster courts, and were, relatively, poor on defense. Moya's bh still needs work, after all this time.
But the sliding ability of all these great champions is what's more negotiable, and I'll side with Pete on this one. It's certainly a stylistic choice to go with a double bh over a single bh, and to make a single bh into a credible shot takes amazing patience, skill and will. Sampras's bh was certainly nothing to sneeze at, but I don't recall to many points ending on that particular shot. I'd also imagine it's just a little harder to slide into a one hander with any authority, but that's purely speculation from a double bh guy. But, Nadal and the other clay kings could turn their defensive clay bh shots into offensive winners. It's much more difficult for even Federer, or more offensive minded, forehand guided players to do this. Another reason Nadal's uncle should be congratulated, and why early players should experiment with using both hands for the forehand.

Slice re:

I'm leaning toward the conviction that "shot tolerance" or "shot threshold" is more closely linked to physical and mental conditioning than to style.

From the physical conditioning perspective, a player may be tempted or inclined to "pull the trigger" and bring the point to a rapid end due to a kind of minor fatigue or inability to breathe easy. This might cause him to consider it a lower risk to go for his shot NOW rather than later, when he has even fewer reserves in the tank.

Back to my reaction to your point: I know this is a factor in my play as I get older. I know I cannot run from corner to corner for 20 hits so I find a way to bring the point to a conclusion, for better or worse, often worse.

Lots of players know how to milk timing so they can last what seems like a long match. But most reasonably fit people can regain their breath when they can take a 25 second break every 20-30 seconds. It is fairly easy to hide some lack of fitness behind the facade of power play. I suspect that some of Nalbandian's and Kuznetzova's inconsistency has to do with their marginal shape. They seem in better shape than they may be. I don't see Nadal or Federer taking short cuts, certainly not Nadal. I think Federer's lower shot tolerance comes from his ability when he is firing on all cylinders to win points off of any shot. That kind of power must be heady as well as frustrating when he is not in the magic zone.

now i know why i used to go for too much too early against one player (my brother who used to defend everything and who is a nadal fan btw) and lose many a time...and wonder why i was able to beat many others easily time and time again....players who could beat my brother many a times.
damn that shot tolerance concept! wish i had read this bit about 18 years ago! :)
BTW my name should tell you where my fan loyalties lie!
My argument would be that the shot tolerance one has could vary like DM suggested from tourney to tourney and also from opponent to opponent. I am sure, fed will not be itching to pull the trigger against Roddick or Blake as much as he would against nadal on clay.

My coach always tells me to learn to slide as I can approach the ball faster, most especially with drop shots made by an opponent. Up until now, I haven't learn sliding, but I noticed among players who do a lot of sliding that after a good slide, they reach a certain stasis. At the static point, bodies don't move as fast as when they are in constant motion. Basic physics. Thus, it would take the body much friction to start it into motion to approach a ball placed cross court. Hence, after that stasis, the body will move slower than when it is in motion(running sideways). While you get the ball faster when you slide, you also suffer retrieving the ball on good return by your opponent.

attempting to absorb this post
there is just so much to learn here
sorry I missed Pete's open bar
for the record - Gael slides on hard court
and the thing that strikes me as being key to the clay
aside from the slide , the movement , et al
is the patience
american players like Roddick and Blake go for the winner
If hard doesn't work then hit the ball harder
there is no patience in their game - they do not sense the opportunity for the kill
when every shot is a bludgeoning with a sledge hammer
Perhaps that is what they could learn from a little more clay court play
and then maybe they would not be 0 for 2 this year in the first round of Roland Garros

1. For my money sliding is all about stopping. Run to a ball on a hard court, stop on a dime, hit it and recover, and you can remain upright. Try to stop on a dime (centime?) on clay and you'll have clay all over your butt. It can be the less agile player's way of managing the surface, and can surely be overdone, but it has its place. Is it *the* reason American men don't succeed at the French? Puh-lease. Instead, re-read the shot tolerance discussion above and apply as necessary.

To be fair, there is some correlation between the ability to apply one's shot tolerance and technique. It might not be the determining factor, but if we don't find too many players with high shot tolerances who hit flat, and many who load up on topspin, there's most likely a connection there.

(Pls note my use of "too many" and "many": there are exceptions, but as exceptions they don't undermine the overall concept.)

2. There's movement and then there's movement. Some players do better going left to right, others move more naturally forwards and backwards. For me, going coast to coast has never been my strong point, so finding racquetball was a revelation, and I imagine squash would be the same. ("Wha? You mean I only have to take one step left or right, otherwise it's up and back? Cool!")

Up and back (basing your playing style on getting to the net) is anaerobic, side to side is more aerobic.

Pete's Parisian Slide is a marathon. Wimbledon's old school Charing Cross Walk was really a bunch o' sprints.

Of course there are those who're good at both, and they rightfully are the kind of players the rest of us despise.

3. Much has been made of the acres of ground surrounding Court Phillipe Chatrier at the French, and how it allows defensive players to ply their tactics more than any other major court. This should not be discounted. Slow clay lets you stand further behind the baseline than any other surface. You may have to run longer distances to intersect the ball's flight path, but it's less likely it'll be hit past you.

4. Teltscher's comment re: Agassi and how Gilbert taught him shot tolerance is so true. Agassi's discipline in *not* pulling the trigger was incredible. He dispensed with his youthful enjoyment of putting you away with flash, and replaced it with a mature (sadistic?) pleasure in pushing you over the cliff one inch at a time, point after point.

Conversely, Sampras' infamous history at the French, and Becker's never having won a title on clay, speaks to their shot tolerances, too. Fitness wasn't the issue. Frustration and impatience were.

5. Robin, you mean you're not supposed to practice your victory speech at 4/0? Now you tell me.

And I have a question for the more, uh, mature posters:

Sometime around 1974 I saw a movie (pre-video days) called Wimbledon On Ice. It was a collage of points from Wimbledons past, with players slipping around and generally dealing with the wet grass.

The one part I remember, clear as day, was a shot of Rosewall sliding for what seemed like 8 feet, right into one of the most perfect backhands ever (what else?). The amazing thing was the rooster tail of water that shot out from his feet the length of the slide.

Anyone else ever see this?

to tokyo tom: in regards to spaniards winning only at FO- Manolo Santana won Wimbledon (66) and US championship (65)

I thought that this was a brilliant piece (yet again from Bodo!) until the last paragraph, which I disagree with. Scoreboard says that 8/10 players are European or South American in the top 10, with the exception of Roddick and Blake. 2 of the top 2 players are the world's best clay court players, and 4/4 top 10 players are the world's best clay court players and semifinalists at almost every slam, save Davydenko at Wimbledon. So, the rankings suggest that red clay is a pretty good training ground for top players to sculpt their games.

I have always been a little bit disappointed with Roddick's results on the dirt. I see him in Davis Cup matches on the dirt and have only see him really outclassed only a few times, against Moya in Spain in '04 and against Safin on the dirt in Russia during Davis Cup. Otherwise he and Blake both have played some strong away davis cup matches on the red stuff. I thought Roddick was going to take out Andreev last year as well as Acasuso before at Roland Garros, but he choked to acasuso and against Andreev, was not able to handle Andreev's charge in the second and later sets. Roddick's spin serve is a good one in the dirt, I think he should do better because of his never say die attitude. Not to mention he stays in points a bit better and did well with that in the past. And he is in as good enough fitness as anyone.

IMO this thread contains one of the mkost substantive discussions to take place in TW in a long while. The operative term here is "substantive" of course. Most if not all of Pete's posts are interesting and relevant, and some are very entertaining. A few rise to the level of educational, and this is one of them. I know I've learned a great deal here from everyone who has posted a comment.

It is interesting that tonight I played a 4.5 USTA League match. I usually play doubles, despite liking singles a bit more. But tonight I requested one of the singles spots as we were playing on the composition (the green American "clay also known by the brand name, Har-Tru).

Long story short: I was playing a younger guy who was also smaller in stature and very quick. He had some nice topspin rotation off both sides, relying on a consistent two-handed backhand to generate angles and a more powerful forehand to force the action and hit winners. His serve was unique in that he alternated between blasting and severely slicing his first serves, while almost always slicing his second serves out wide to my forehand. (You should know that it may take a while for most playrs to figure it out, but may backhand return is better and more reliable than my forehand return; apparently he was sharp enough to pick up on this very early on, which is unusual.)

So, I'm not feeling too confident that this is going to be easy, by any measure. Yet, I roll out to a 5-0 lead in a fairly comfortable fashion. As it turns out, my opponent has two glaring weaknesses -- he doesn't much like being inside the service line or at the net, having a mediocre volley and overhead; and he has a relatively low (or short?) shot threshold, especially for a player in good physical condition with good topspin technique off both wings and great wheels and who is yo9unger than me. One would expect that he'd try to make the points as long as I could possible tolerate.

So myn strategy was o serve deep into the box, move it around, kick it some; then employ a series of low, short slices to draw him foreward and then launch a topspin groundie deep to one of the corners and look to come in. Alternatively, I would start deep and then throw in something short and nasty, and look for something to (a) pass him on or (b) crack to the open court. This strategy worked rather well, and as it turned out, these tactics caused him to get anxious and nervous (I guess he didn;t like being pulled foreward or to dig out low slices). So, he was the one pulling the trigger too soon, and too often missing or, tagging it right into my power zone where I could use my considerable height and weight size to apply more force to a penetrating reply.

It became a lengthy battle, but the facts never changed, and I won 6-1, 6-1. When we talked after the match, I mentioned this notion of shot tolerance or "threshold" as I prefer to call it now that I've thunk on it some. He admitted to not liking my slices and tactics, and also said he didn;t think he was consistent enough to be more patient. Funny, that last. I assured him that he had the wheels, the conditioning, the youth, and the stroke technique to be a very consistent, steady baseliner and that he merely needed to shed his distate for coming foreward and playing near or inside the service line.

He's the kind of player whim I could help become a 5.0 in vey short order. He's got the goods, he just doesn't have the self-belief to put them to maximum use.

On my end of the court, of course, once I knew that he would become impatient, I relaxed and just played my "Agassi" game. LOL! But in all sincerity, this knowledge took all the pressure off of me to come up with great shotb after great shot. It was entirely unnecessary. I probably hit ten or twelve really good serves (not aces), four strong volleys, three overhead putaways, a handful of baseline winners, a small handful of passing shots, and one great lob. That's all it took. The rest was a simple matter of moving the ball around from near to far, short and low to deep and high, wide to the backhand then up the line.

And I made several great slides to get to balls that he never thought I would.

I think I'm liking this shot threshold concept. But I'm liking its application even nmore!

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While I don't recall that old reel of Rosewall sliding on the lawns of Wimbledon, I did have the distinct pleasure of watching "Muscles" play in Newport, RI, on the grass. He was playing an exo against Butch Buchholz (sp?), and I was amazed at his impeccable balance and body control. And yes, I did see him, several times, take off toward the net to retrieve a short chip or drop from Buchholz and get down into a low surfer's stance and slide some 8 to 12 feet before finally, just before coming to a stop, sliding his racquet under the ball and with a completely open face either executiung a perfect cross-court angle, a nasty little drop shot, or an elegant arcing lob for a winner. It was amazing. And he was 47 years old at the time!

Thanks for sharing and reminding me of one of the all-time great movers.