first! Finally!

Now I will contribute nothing useful to the rest of the discussion

First?!

Ed, I don't really agree with the assesment (and I did watch the match). I felt Murray looked a little uncomfortable forcing the action, whether it was due to Nadal, or his knee I don't know. Just way to many fh errors for me to give this a best match of the tournament rating...but perhaps the others were worse.

if we're talking about quality in terms of numbers, the rafa-gasquet match had better winner/ufe errors for both players. but gasquet fizzled in the end. this match, otoh, had both players maintaining a high level of play till the end. and rafa was forcing the issue with murray's fh so the errors that were coming from there were to be expected. it was a tactical move that worked for rafa.

i didn't see the 2nd set of the ferrer-gasquet match though, which i heard was very good.

oops, that's winner/ufe ratio.

I was distressed at the bad officiating in the Murray-Nadal match. Refusing to call a trainer for Murray was outrageous. (Remember Nadal taking a five minute time out (yes 5) for his knee when Federer was serving for the set in Hamburg? And his medical time outs (plural) in last year's French Open when Federer was ahead?)

Then after Nadal was given a warning for taking too much time to serve, he screamed insults at the ref, then Nadal warned the ref not to penalize him or he would call the tournament officals in, and Nadal took 40-to-60 seconds on some serves -- without a peep from the intimdiated official.

That's not fair play.

I'm waiting for the opponent that has, say, Jimmy Connor's cajones to calmly stop in the middle of Nadal's build up to his serve and walk to the the next box proclaiming: "Time over. My point." The officals would be forced to deal with the tedious waiting, underware adjustment, and ball boucning and either enforce the rules or admit they are biased and won't.

And then when Nadal stops play to ask Uncle Tony whether he should challenge a point, the cajones-enabled opponent would tell the chair, "He missed the opportunity to challenge while he was checking with his coach. If you don't know the rule, bring the tournament chair in and check."

Ed, you're right ... players seem to bring their most best, most aggressive tennis to matches with Rafa ... and Kiefer will be no exception. Rafa will not underestimate him. The Spaniard definitely has his priorities in the right place at the moment.

Interesting take. The way that things are shifting in tennis right now, I think everyone is just trying to catch up. We've gotten so accustomed to assuming Federer's invincibility that seeing someone else about to overtake his position is unbelievable.

I believe that Nadal has a definite aura. His physicality alone is enough to wear down almost every opponent, and the Wimbledon final has definitely helped in that department. Federer is beginning to look very fragile, while Nadal on his worst surface looks strong.

This late summer and fall will be extremely important in determining the destiny of both Federer and Nadal. When Nadal takes the number one, how will Federer react? Can Nadal step it up on hard courts? The Olympics could add to the intrigue as well.

If Nadal wins the US Open though, which would be tough, he is the de facto year end number one.

"i didn't see the 2nd set of the ferrer-gasquet match though, which i heard was very good."

It was.

Absolutely agree with JimF! I was appalled by the bad officiating myself. Thank goodness Mourier finally took action against Nadal and warned him for time violation! I couldn't believe Nadal's reaction to it! And some people say that Federer should learn humility from HIM?! Umpires should grow some Wilanders and not be intimidated by players, even someone who's probably going to be #1 next week.

Life's not fair but tennis should be.

o my..i see nadal taking the no1 position REALLY soon

Masha,

R u kidding me? Yes Nadal gave some sh*t to the chair ump. But Mourier deserved it. Fact, Nadal takes a long time to serve. That's true. But so do millions of other players on the men's and women's side. Since it's clear that the chair umps are not going to enforce this routinely, I believe Nadal essentially makes the fair point that they should not enforce this at critical points in the match (as we saw tonight and at Wimbey). Moreover, there is no question that Nadal is BY FAR AND AWAY the most humble player in the game and perhaps ever. He has NEVER, EVER mentioned that he aspired to be No. 1. He has only ever been gracious in both defeat and victory. He has never entered a tournament talking about how he was the favorite etc. (as the Fed described himself and Djokovic as the presumptive favorites coming into the hardcourt season). Nadal just doesn't talk smack, ever, in any way. When Fed took his thumping in Paris, he said afterwards, wait till Wimbledon then tell me that I'm having a bad season. Fast forward four weeks later, he's having a bad season. But what was the smack talk. I'm the presumptive favorite he proclaimed until someone takes it away from me. You'll NEVER, EVER hear Nadal speaking in those terms about any tournament. Why? Because he plays one match at a time, one point at a time. That's why he will ultimately prove to be the GOAT/BOAT (assuming he can stay healthier during the hard court swings of the year). And if you think that's silly, take a look at the record books. None of the other GOAT/BOAT contenders had anywhere close to 5 majors by their 22nd Bday. None of them.

JimF
what were the insults that Rafa shouted at the umpire?

What I heard from commentators was that he told him that next time he gets a time violation he'll call the tournament referee. That should not intimidate an umpire "who is doing his job". Even the ESPN commentators questioned the timing of the warning.

Ed
Great report. And it is so true. If you look at the great matches of recent years, often NAdal is part of them . Rome 06 against federer, match with Murray at AO 07, Shanghai semi 07 against Federer, Wimbledon final 08 and matches with Gasquet and Murray in this tournament.

Masha and Jimf:

I totally don't agree with you. Accusing Rafa of misconduct is crazy. So many players take extra time serving (eg Djokovic). And the umpire had no business calling for time violation at 15-40 breakpoint. No one gives a time violation at an extremely critical point. Was the umpire sleeping before? He could have given time violation at 5-6 during the 1st set - where Rafa took as much time.
Rafa was NOT screaming 'insults' at the empire. He merely complained that the call cost him the game. That's the main reason he double-faulted.

If you're accusing Rafa - what about Murray? Wasn't he whining about the line calls. He made bad calls and finished his challenges - yet at the breakpoint (3-4 in the 2nd set) he said " I don't believe this - the lines boy makes bad calls" when his ball clearly landed in the doubles gallery.

That said - accusing Nadal of gamesmanship is a heresy. I have NEVER ever seen more humility in a player. Hell, Rafa does not even consider himself a favorite at the French!! He never throws his racket or does any tantrums on the court.
Before and after every match - Rafa always praises his opponent. He even said that Murray has a good chance against him and refused to consider himself as a favorite even though Murray has a 0-4 loss record against him.

The kid's been raised well. He is the most humble player after Pete Sampras. His conduct on and off the court has been nothing short of exemplary. These are the kind of people we require for the betterment of Tennis as a sport. And the worst you folks can do is disparage Rafa on his sportsmanship.

I am having hard time agreeing that the best match of the tournament was the match where the result was decided mainly by the errors forced by one of the opponents and where both players had more errors than winners.

For me Gasquet-Ferrer was the best match by far. Played at a brisk pace with loads of breathtaking winners from both players. It even converted my previously skeptic husband into a Gasquet fan.

Great article Pete. I do agree that Nadal has an aura about him and that arua is his intensity. And because of Nadal's intensity I don't think there is anyone who will be able to beat him in the near future.
But what I will miss about the Fed's aura was his finesse and his ability to make every point earned look so easy...very Jordanesque!

PSCB: ditto your second paragraph.

BTW, that was Ed McGrogan's post who's at Rogers Cup this week, not Pete's.

Elena-
Thanks for the correcting me =)....I just re-read the article and realized who wrote it.

I fully agree with JimF and Masha. It has been noted time and again that Rafa , when tight on break points, takes extra time than his already extra chores prior to serving. Even commentators in various tournaments have mentioned this , and officials should start enforcing some rules here. Fed and Nole atleast say what they feel in straight-jacket fashion point blank. Rafa infact, ditches questions smartly many times pretending not understanding the english, though he understands them, NO !! And not to forget his extra generosity towards No. 1, which at times looks fake. Sorry Federer and all...

JimF,

If you would like to use a loan word from a foreign language, please spell it correctly. In Spanish, "cajones" means "drawers"; the word you are looking for is "cojones". It is pretentious and derisible to affect sophistication by interjecting foreign words you can't spell; if one is incapable of doing so effectively, then perhaps it's best to stick to pure English.

As for Nadal's sportsmanship, I think that unless he suffers a radical character change, his detractors are mainly going to blast hot air--sound and fury, but much ado about nothing. He simply hasn't given them enough material over the years. Accusing him of being a shrewd, cheating beast who hides under the guise of being a simpleton is just a rationalization of being offended that someone can play such good tennis in a way that doesn't correspond to their ideal.

We'll see tomorrow whether Nadal can win his fifth straight tournament on a third surface.

George,
Very well said.
Never heard of Nadal belittling his opponents. He always said they are tough for him and he just keep this motivation up as much as he can. Not very often do we see him giving up. As he said if you lose, you lose and you just have to congratulate your opponent. I think Federer in some cases act like Serena in defeat. It is seemingly easy to react properly after a win instead of a loss. Nadal has lost plenty in his last hard court season in summmer and fall but he seldom reacted like soar grapes. This is why he has lots of fans all over the world. He is a son that most mothers will dream to have. IMO

I'm just happy to see Nadal win in this match. Andy fought valiantly and for a time I thought he'd clinch the game. Can't wait to see the finals. This is my first time to post here. Just want to thank everyone for all the interesting and highly informative comments. --- A neophyte tennis fan from Asia :-P

Masha and JimF,

[Moderator edited]. Belittling Rafa with words will not change the fact that he is head and shoulders above everyone else at the moment. He's kicked everyone else's ass, including Federer's, and will eventually supplant Federer as number 1 very, very soon. :)

JimF,

[Mod Edited] whos your favorite player? i bet its someone who lost to nadal. its okay. go ahead. cry.

Are posts about the #1 ranking relevant here? Oh well here goes...

If I'm not mistaken points from Montreal '07 will drop off the week of Aug 4th and points from Cincy '07 on Aug 18th, since they stay on for exactly 52 weeks. The way the ATP site puts it is as though points from both tourneys come off together on Aug 18th, which won't be the case (I think).

If that's the case Rafa has to make up a 150 point gap on Federer going into Cincy next week if he wins in the final, and this can happen in 1 of 3 ways:

(1) He wins the title;

(2) He makes the final and Federer loses in or before the QFs in Cincy;

(3) He makes the semis and Federer loses his first or second match.

Not sure how the ATP 'best 18 tournaments' rule fits into all of this though...Hope this clears things up a little for people out there who were confused by this year's weird schedule...

i think roger well be in number 1 palce.

Sorry my bad, Montreal '07 points should come off Aug 11 not Aug 4...The upshot though is that Rafa could well be the #1 seed going into the USO, regardless of the players' performances in Beijing

williamgates... you are funny! Even if Nadal, at times, has poor sportsmanship (which i do no think), it is still far less than a lot of other players. You also can not say that Nadal's opponents lose to him because he takes a few extra seconds to serve, that is just a bad cop out.
It seems that people are just trying to find ways to dislike him, put him down, or point out flaws. Which I think is very difficult to do because he is a sincere and decent guy.
GO RAFA!!!!

Even if Rafa does not end up #1, he has clearly won the most titles, and has been the most consistent. We all know who is the REAL #1

George,

Very well said.I totally agree with u.

Nadal poor sportsmanship??? give me a break LOL! Nadal is a role model. Im not a Nadal fan but have to admit he is a role model in all he does.

We all know who is the REAL #1. I agree... RAFA is already #1 to alot of people. At least this year....He is the undespituted #1.

Nadal poor sportsmanship? No way. He's a bit slow at times, but as Federer himself says, it's not done for gamesmanship, it's just a bad habit he has.

The reason why Rafa had a problem with the time violation was that this umpire ALWAYS gives him a violation on break point. It wasn't just about tonight. Sometimes Rafa takes longer on break points, but he took no longer when that violation came last night than any other point - yet that's where the warning came.

He has said many times before that he acknowldeges that he sometimes takes too long and so has no problem when the umpire says something and gives him a warning - the problem is, he has a bit of a history with this umpire.

As for the implication that Rafa fakes injuries for gamesmanship - what utter tripe!! You could tell Rafa had a valid problem at Hamburg there for a while as you could see it in his movement whenever he came forward and the fact he suddenly looked to end points early. He's not the only person to feel better after treatment in a match.

Rafa rocks 4 so many reasons:

his humility
his desire 2 win
never been intimidated by federer like the other chockers!

And I totally agree with rafa4ever, he's certainly my idea of a perfect son. Humble, ambitious and polite!

Gosh, I go away and come back and the Rafa "time wasting" argument is still going on!

Can I just show some appreciation for the Rafa fan camp for the way they generally have been discussing this issue. Recognising there is an issue, bringing it up and discussing it so objectively is not an easy thing to do - so, respect.

Unfortunately this has been responded to with the usual - Rafa is a cheat, and then the corresponding - Rafa is not a cheat and to prove it I am going to insult other players because two wrongs make a right - type of debate.

But hey, it's the internet!!!

My own personal thoughts on the issue are that it is becoming a bit of a problem. Like most people I know that it is not gamesmanship and his motivation is not to disrupt the preparations of other players. The problem is that whether he means it or not, sometimes it does - but the fact that it is not a deliberately disruptive act makes it harder to deal with for other players, officials and fans alike. It's hard not to get irritated and cross in high stress situations and even more so if you also feel guilty and slightly unjustified for feeling the irritation in the first place.

I like Rafa, but because of this issue, can't watch him. I get very very irritated by the rituals. Yet I know he's a bit OCDish, I know its not gamesmanship - I can't get cross the way I might if I felt he was doing it on purpose - so generally I just walk away rather than have these strong contradictory feelings spoil my enjoyment of the match. But that's my problem!

What will be Rafa's problem, particularly when he undoubtedly and deservedly ascends the No 1 position, is that the media will start to focus on this more and more - fairly or unfairly. Where does the point between your right to prepare yourself in the manner you need to, end - and the point where your responsibility for the impact your actions negatively impact on other people, begin. I don't pretend to know the answer to this one.

Certainly, because Rafa is viewed (probably correctly) as being one of the good guys, we give him a bit of lee-way. But someone like Novak who is often viewed (probably incorrectly) as being one of the (sometimes) bad guys his rituals are quite harshly judged. I don't pretend to know the answer to this one either, public perception is a wierd and often unfair thing at times!!

But anyway, those are just my thoughts - its not a rant - because I dont' have the negative feelings to fuel one, and again props to the Rafa fans on the other thread for dealing with this issue so well. (Non existent smiley face added - use your imagination).

andy murray played great tennis yesterday. not a fan of his but the shots he came up with were amazing. i was surprised at how rafa didn't have as many winners as murray and if it weren't for andy's numerous errors, that match could've gone to the third set and quite possibly, andy's way.

but i'm glad rafa stuck through and passed into the final. hopefully he'll get the win over kiefer today too.

I love ypu very much Nadal..

I hope & think you will get the No.1 very soon...

You are simply the best..

Remamber me.. I'm Mohammad from syria & I'm studying medicine at the second year..

Just Keep Going.. God bless you..

[Moderator deleted quote of post which has itself been deleted above]

Ok.... If that was in response to me, I was not insulting Nadal at all - a proper reading of my post should have indicated that. If I mis-communicated it - apologies. But if this is in response to me - it is an overly-aggressive inappropriate response. If it was not in response to me - please ignore this post.

No other player was mentioned in my post, or was in my mind when posting. The subject matter was quite particular and in response to a debate that had already taken place involving a group of fans of Rafa himself, a debate which I felt was worthy of note due to its objectiveness and high quality. It is easy for fans of a any player to lose the ability to see clearly and we have all done it at times - no matter who we support.

A couple of observations regarding the time violation.

1. If this were a real problem, "cheating"! as some people claim, it could easily be remedied by putting a shot clock up on either side of the court so that the umpire, the players and everyone in the stands would know when a violation occurs. This way it's taken out of the umpire's hands and the penalties are automatic. What doesn't seem good for the sport is the umpire arbitrarily picking a moment in the match to give a warning.

2. There is a difference between deliberate players, who always play slow, and players who suddenly take a great deal of times on crucial points. Some have argued that Rafa does this, but it's simply not the case. He may take a couple of seconds longer on important points, but he always plays slow - always right around the maximum alloted time. There is never an egregious change of the rhythm of the service game. To me this is key.

3. Before Wimbledon, Boris Becker said that it makes no difference, because he always plays slow the other player knows that he is going to have more time to prepare to return. For him it was a non-issue. Once again, the key element is that the rhythm of the match is fairly constant when Rafa serves, slow - so both players get dialed in to to that speed.

4. Being forced to play at your opponent's speed is uncomfortable, just ask anybody who returned serve against Agassi - he would be firing serves as soon as the returner went down into his crouch. Very uncomfortable. Was that illegal? Of course not, was it comfortable? For Agassi is was. Rafa does the same thing that Andre did, just on the other end of the spectrum - he plays at a deliberate speed. This is uncomfortable to players who want to play faster, and maddening to players who lack focus (just as Agassi's rapid fire serving was) but I don't accept that it's gamesmanship and certainly not "cheating". It's a rhythm of play that doesn't vary much throughout the match.

5. It's true that when Rafa becomes the number one player, many are going to try to make a mountain out of this mole hill. This is mostly due to jealousy, sour grapes, bitterness, etc. Just as they have done with Roger on many other non-issues. Rafa fans will just have to accept it - unless the ATP decides to really crack down on the rule (with a shot clock for instance) nothing is going to change and be honest, how big a deal is this? From an objective point of view not very - from a subjective point of view - for those who don't like Rafa - well it's everything from gamesmanship to flat out "cheating".

Me, I'm going to watch the tennis and let other worry about this non-issue.

Funny how Rafa fans (which I am one) keep whining about how relentless Fed fans (which I also happen to be) are in their devotion ... when they take every opportunity to pull Fed's name out now that he's down to kick him, whether he's part of the conversation or not.

Can you say ... 'double standard'?

I'd love to see Rafa win today, as he deserves it ... but a piece of me wants Keifer to upset and win his first singles title in 8 years.

How emotional would that be!

Personally,I prefer to watch Fed's style of play, but Nadal is growing in my esteem as the most improved player on all surfaces this year.
If he keeps this up (and his knees don't give up on him), HE will be the one who surpasses Pete Sampras Grand Slam hauls.

To call Nadal's respect to other players is atrocious and immature. Why does he have to do it? when asked what tactics he was going to adopt to play Agassi at US open, Fed said " I am no.1 aand he is no. 8. Idon't have to change anything" That is how disrespectful Fed was. If Nadal doesn't want to answer a question and get into controversy, that is his prerogative. Don't childishly conclude that he pretends not to understand english.

Murier is not very welcome with others umpires of the circuit. Everybody knows that.

Rafa doesnt going to play Cincinati I think. Rafa´s crew are thinking that right now. Olimpics its a very special issue (only each 4 years) for Rafa, more than the UsOpen. I think it would be the right decision.

look anybody who is bashing federer or saying that fed was talking about being the favorite in the hardcourts along with djokovic, i mean come on give me a break. Federer is classy and was never arrogant. YOu people just want any opportunity to criticize federer, what is wrong with saying that coming into hard courts he would be viewed as favorite along with djokivic, and the record shows it despite the slump. Fed has been so dominant that he there is nothing wrong with saying that in order to take the number one spot u have to beat him and that is true you have to beat him. You people do not understand the amount of pressure federer goes through and how the media was attacking him when he was/is undergoing a slump after being dominant for so long, it is irritating to the guy of course. Let us see when nadal becomes number 1 and IF he becomes dominant which he wont be as dominant as federer with all due respects to nadal fans and that has to do mainly with the style of play nadal employs (he puts too much strain on his body) and then the media picks on every little thing he does then watch how he handles the pressure and how he will say things that will be taken out of context. And i think u guys attacking federers comments are taking things out of context. Ok let me put it that way remember how nadal was complaining about the clay season and how the schedule was tight and he was all upset about it and realy vocal about it (well we have seen federer win tournament after tournament in the past years without ever complaining about scheduling or anything) and by the way nadal fans federer has always been full of praise for nadal and never had any disrespect for any player. Even when he lost with mono in australia he gave credit to mr arrogant djokivic who now is feeling the pressures of being one of the top players and never mentioned the mono only months later so how dare u guys even question feds humbleness. Please i respect nadal a lot and he is a great guy and i have the uttermost respect for roger and both are great players but dont come bashing on fed with silly comments about something he said which was completely harmless (the guy is human) just be in his shoes for one day and see how it feels, but also dont tell me that nadal had never ever complained or was always perfect in his attitude nobody is perfect everyone is human and let us keep it at that give these players their due respect. And let us see for how long nadal if he becomes number one for how long he can stay there remember fed could lose the spot but could regain it quickly and that will make it intriguing. and remember just like nadal complalined about the scheduling of the caly season and was in battle with all in the atp oranization is because he was feeling the heat of having to defend his clay season, so fed was feeling the heat of defending wimbledon and number 1 and so he was criticizing the media for putting him off i mean come on the guy is 12 times grand slam champion nobody has his record of winning in and out tournament after another consistently and still has always been gracious in defeat and victory just like Nadal has said. So u guys dont be like the media and start criticizing everything come on give the guy his due respect. And by the way the us open series still not over still there is cincy and the US open and Fed has won the US open 4 years in a row something no other player has done so of course he goes into it being the favorite. But whatever outcome let us respect roger and rafael for what they are great players and persons.

At this stage of the game, Nadal also has a MUCH BETTER chance than anyone else to achieve a career Grand Slam, something which has eluded Federer (so far) and Sampras.

If people tried to watch the time that Rafa takes time to serve,then there will be no issues.20 second are allowed for preparation and serve.If you count time then you will understand that Rafa takes only about 10-12 seconds.Yes, Rafa did shout yesterday.That was little uncharacteristic of him.Do JIM F remember 2007 wimbledon final were Federer was shouting at umpire.And he was shouting because hawk eye proved that federer was wrong.I like Federer`s game very much and i would like to see him playing his level best for atleast next 3-4 years.But at the same time i does not like the hypocricy of some Fed fans were they see every wrong of other players,but always are blind to Fed`s shortcomings.There must be a balance in judging people.Nadal defenitely is one of the most graceful and humble players on the tennis circuit.But at the same time he is extremely competitive on court.That is why people are watching tennis.

What's wrong with Federer saying that he played well if he did? And if he was ranked #1 and Agassi was #8, then what's wrong with saying that? Or saying that he's never lost to, say, Davydenko? It ain't bragging if it's true. I can see where Fed's honesty can seem arrogant at times, but not everyone has to be self-deprecating like Rafa. Remember, different personalities.

As for the time issue, the umps need to start enforcing it strictly for everyone if they're going to enforce it.

This site needs some moderation.Sounds like a bunch of children in a school yard.Regarding your points Ed Im not sure i agree.I thought the player who has produced the most entertaining matches in this tournament has actually been Gasquet because he plays with varied shot selection.I actually find myself bored and stop watching most Nadal matches.I also find his grunting and long wind up to serving such a turn off.

"If Nadal wins the US Open though, which would be tough, he is the de facto year end number one."

Jlee,
Rafael will be number one at the end of 2008 if that happens unless he gets injured and Roger has great results after the USO.

ASOID,
Welcome to TennisWorld.

Addie,
Since the Olympics will start at the end of the week, play would have been started before the 8/11 rankings so they are treating it like a 2 week tournament(ie - IW and KB).

"
What doesn't seem good for the sport is the umpire arbitrarily picking a moment in the match to give a warning.
"

sic, 100% agree. ATP/WTA should do something, this is creating some controversy. Witness the success of Hawkeye & c. challenge system which brought some objectivity and is super fun for public as they are oohing as the ball slowmotions to the line and then aahing in surprise.

Murray was being such a jerk -- screaming about the poor line boy making bad call, and the call was actually right! -- but that is not the point. Andy buddy you lost not because of the line kid but because of Rafa, but you dont have balls to scream at Rafa of course so lets find someone smaller then yourself. What a wuss. Glad you lost. Bleh. Ajde Rafa!

This thread will be closed for a while, until the messes left by a few inconsiderate breakers of the Site Rules have been cleaned up.

Moderators are busy people too, and right now this one doesn't have time to wade through the entire thread.

This thread is now reopened for business.

I think if there are rules about time violations, then they should be enforced. I also think they should be enforced fairly and consistently, across the board. It appears to be the case that this doesn't happen - some umpires are clearly better at handling these situations than others, and have a greater reputation for fairness. Rafa's beef seems to be that he feels singled out by Cedric Mourier. Whether this is correct or not, I couldn't possibly say. But anyway, if the rule is to be enforced properly going forward, then there needs to be a sense - on the part of all concerned - that the actual enforcement is being done in a balanced and transparent manner.

I can't forget that that Cedric Mourier was the umpire who in Bercy last year, when Davydenko was suffering from serving yips after being fined for "not trying" at an earlier tournament, was giving him "advice" on the changeover to do better with his serve ("Serve like me!" I heard him say). Commentators at the time (Peter Fleming where I live) criticised him harshly, and also pointed out that he's not considered to be the best official around (that accolade might go to someone like Enric Molina or Carlos Ramos, but definitely not Cedric Mourier).

In the absence of hard data being offered here - many "observations", which well may be valid, but no actual numbers, about time taken between points, I have decided that during some upcoming matches, I will sit with a stopwatch and monitor the times taken between points by some players myself, Nadal and Djokovic included. In particular, I'm going to go back over the recording of this Murray-Nadal match with the stopwatch, and see whether it tells us anything useful.

Jim F.
I agree with you about the time taking of Rafael Nadal. He does it. Everyone knows that he does it, Federer has spoken of it, JMac in the early days spoke of it. Nadal is not above the law and should be penalized. In fact, not enough ref's call him on it and it's high time he was penalized.

As for calling a trainer for Murray's knee—Murray was given a choice, stop play now, or wait until the end of the set. Murray chose the latter. He's not a baby, he should know what the rules are: The trainer can be called at any time.

Gasquet actually did better against Nadal than Murray, because at least Richard was able to take a set. Not that there was much difference between the two, except props to Murray for battling to the end.

Rafa's opponents should be glad he takes a long time to serve. They usually need that time to catch their breath after he's had them running all over the court.

cmac - you have a point. But, it can be maddening waiting for all of the rituals to be observed.

Well I guess if you can't win by playing better tennis than Nadal, you should should try to beat him through technicalities... You know because he's "cheating" his way to number one.

well, I guess if you're going to be No. 1, you need to play by the rules. Or, maybe not. Maybe it doesn't matter anyway, in which case we may as well stop watching.

No CCC: Sunday?

All this crybaby whining because Nadal may soon become No. 1! Grow up.

Oh come on Syd! Couldn't you be focusing on all the other things that Rafa does well that are the real reasons why he's winning? Yes, he has a lot of rituals. He's a methodical player and it has served him well. He's certainly not the first pro athlete to have them.

What's mindboggling about this discussion is that almost all the top players and most of the other players have serving "rituals". But those rituals are only an issue when they start winning. Also, all the top players take time on their serve and play slower on crucial points - could there possibly be a connection between doing this and holding serve? Just a thought.

The matc is about to start in 19 minutes!!!

Syd, everybody, including Rafa himself, agrees that if he keeps going over the time limit he should be warned, and I have never seen him react badly to such a warning before. The question is whether it is fair of the umpire to warn him on a crucial point when he has not taken noticeably more time than on previous, less pivotal points in the match. Cedric Mourier last night, and Pascal Maria in the Wimbledon final could easily have influenced the course that those matches took. Does taking 2 extra seconds on serve warrant really losing a set, or a match?

Rosangel, I will be very interested to learn the results of your research :)

As far as the whole time violation thing is concerned, I'm with jb; the umpires and tournament officials need to simply inform ALL players, ALL coaches, that they will now be calling time violations...when they occur...and whenever they occur... on a consistent basis. I mean they either call it or they don't...this sort of nibbling around the edges - the idea that idividual umpires will have a 'quiet word' with a player, THEN they might issue a warning, THEN might give a violation it ridiculous. As is the reality that it varies from umpire to umpire. First, the umpires, WITH the total support of tournament officials, need to get THEIR act together and then they need to find the combination of smarts and Wilanders to enforce the rules. Then none of the players will have ANY legit grounds for complaint. (Of course this entire scenario is little more than a dream. Intentionally or not, Hawkeye has furthered the de-Wilandering of the Umpires and officials that the 'Brat years" started. Now we have exchanged full blown on-court temper tantrums for a set of OCD tics and towel flove worthy of Linus... and I don't mean Pauling.)

sic - I noticed you mentioned Agassi in your earlier post...I think one of the very few things Fed has in common with Agassi is that they both like to play quite quickly, and it works well for them. BUT, when they get in trouble, they rush...and that DOES not work. If he was behind or feeling tight in a match, sometimes Andre would barely pause between a missed 1st serve and a second serve, usually with bad results. I noticed that Fed was doing that the other night against Simon with similar results.

So everyone observes how tough Rafa is mentally, how well he can put a miss or a double fault or a break behind him. Taking a while before his serve to get his mind right is probably how he does that. So frickin' what! rules scmules I say. As long as he's not breaking rules like doping or throwing his racquet into the crowd, give him a break on a few more seconds to serve. You can quit watching him play because he's "breaking the rules" if you want to but I can't think of any player whose matches are more entertaining.

I already know the results of Rosangel's research. ALL of the players exceed the time limit on more than one occasion during each and every match they play.

In the end isn't the most important thing that the players themselves are accepting of each other foibles. While fans pick them apart for the smallest possible 'offences', and we're talking about seconds here, they just get on with the job of competing against each other.

They generally seem to be able to do that in a spirit of sportsmanship and remain on good terms. Maybe we posters should take a leaf out their book.

cl, i thought about that re federer and taking time during that match. i was thinking, maybe he should take a page out of rafa's book and pause a bit between serves to collect his thoughts. he was moving way too fast, imo.

Cl that's an interesting observation regarding Agassi and Federer - I also happen to think that sometimes Rafa's opponents return better because he is so slow as it gives them time to think and figure out his tendencies - something that was impossible with Agassi, you just had to react. Murray was wailing on a lot of those serves because he was guessing right. If I were a returner I would much prefer waiting more than usual rather than less than usual.

CL;

I agree with the majority of your post. Also, that Fed appears to serve too quickly, at times; presumably, to his own detriment. As huge Federer fan, it seems to me that he's now paying the price, monogate excepted, for lack of a coach for what amounts to most of the time he's been at number one. Having old man Roche 'part time' was a stupid decision, that cost Federer a lot of prime time.

Kirsty,

I think you nailed it there. People can complain about Rafa or Novak or Roger or Agassi or whoever until they are blue in the face - that's their prerogative, but it doesn't mean anything except wasted bytes flying through the internet.

Once the players have played against each other several times, they know exactly what to expect and none of Rafa's opponents have complained about his speed (before Wimbledon, Roger was the exception, which I found very interesting considering the magnitude of the match they were about to play).

Kirsty,

Good post, and very true. We all seem to have too much time on our hands don't we. Foibles, flare-ups, flash points and disputes pass for the players, but for us on forums like this they do get discussed ad finitum and take on a life of their own. The media also like a good story that requires little work on their part, so I expect this will continue to be the theme of pressers just like Fed's Hawk-Eye fixation, Djoko's ball-bouncing, Roddick's on-court comedy monologues and Safin's racquet/chair* (*delete as appropriate) smashing.

abbey - I have noticed this about Fed for awhile. He seems to have quick/calm or fast/panic. And alas the latter has been on display more frequently of late.

sic - I think maybe its 6 of one/ half dozen of the other. I think that those who take longer to serve give their opponents time to re-group and possibly re-think the next serve coming at them. OTH, and extra slooowww serving could cause frustration and a lack of focus at times, I would think. Sometimes when they show a close-up of Fed waiting to receive a Rafa or Novak serve... or a serve from another more 'deliberate' server....and he is doing that swaying thing back and forth... I do worry that he is zoning out and may actually drift off to sleep...sorta. Not saying there is anything wrong in the server doing that...unless there is a clear time violation... after all it is supposed to be 'at the server's pace'... just that extra time can be a double edged sword.

Nadal and Kiefer on court

CL,

Laughed at your image of Fed rocking himself off to sleep waiting for a slow serve:)

Here's to Rafa becoming number one. Good luck today Rafa.

Andy Murray made himself look even more stupid then usual yesterday. Yes he played a great match, but his immaturity was more obvious then his backhand.

It look's like Nadal's shutting up all of the crtics who said he wasn't a hard court player. HA!

They won't show the match on espn2 till 3, by then the match will be over. Anyways, I agree with your assessment Ed. Nadal brings out the best in his opponents. He is one of the greatest athlete's out there.

"Cedric Mourier was the umpire who in Bercy last year, when Davydenko was suffering from serving yips after being fined for "not trying" at an earlier tournament, was giving him "advice" on the changeover to do better with his serve ("Serve like me!" I heard him say)."

This was indeed absurd. I don't understand why Mourier was not suspended for conducting himself this way. Completely inappropriate.

Rafa has a ritual before he serves, but I have never thought of it as time wasting. However, there is a definite standard. It's 20 seconds between points. Could those people who accuse him of time wasting tell us definitively that he regularly exceeds the limit. If you can show this you definitely have a case.

Fran @ 10:03 AM: I am with you on both Nadal's and Gasquet's game 100 per cent.

Wayne - I'm a VT editor and Rafa does hold us up because on a regular basic he goes over time. It doesn't bother me because i know he's going to do it on break and big points we just cut an add when he serves to save a set.

No other tennis player is allowed to break the rule to my knowledge.

Pete,

I think Nadal not only has played his best tennis, he has played the best matches of the year, forcing his opponents to come up with radical game plans:

1) Nadal vs Tsonga - Aus open - unfortunately Tsonga was on crack that day
2) Nadal vs Tsonga - Indian wells - Nadal just found a way to edge out
3) Nadal vs Blake - Indian Wells - WOW!
4) Nadal vs Blake - Miami
5) Nadal vs Federer - Monte Carlo finals
6) Nadal vs Djokovic - Hamburg semifinals
7) Nadal vs Federer - Hamburg Final
8) Nadal vs Djokovic - Queens
9) Nadal vs Federer - Wimbledon final
10) Nadal vs Gasquest - Toronto quaterfinals
11) Nadal vs Murray - Toronto semifinals

These are just a few examples of the best games I have seen, where his opponents have pushed the envelope to the highest possible degree. Great great games. I have collected all of these.

Nadal made a point of making the inexperienced Tsonga wait to even go through the toin coss ceremony.

Nadal will be forgiven for breaking the rules because audiences like to see him parading himself like a model.

nameless poster at 4:43.

Rafa treated Tsonga horriby during the prematch ritual but Rafa won the match. Winning is what the best do and Rafa does it all the time without worrying about how.

RAFA,
I thought I had read somewhere about some DIRTBALLER named RAFA NADAL,could I have DREAMED THIS?????????

RAFA,
O I forgot too all of you who think he takes too long to serve you must not have counted DJOKE'S BALL BOUNCING. OR are we just acting mean because he has finally made it out of SPOT # 2,THE FED will be back but even he said that if someone takes the spot he wants it to be RAFA. Would we rather someone who does not RESPECT him have it -like DJOKE. TSONGA ain't even in this,lets just try to be happy for this KID for once. PLEASE

I agree with the post that says the rules should be enforced consistantly and fairly by the refs. Do not blame/get mad at the players, the umpires need to do their job and regulate the situation. If they don't, expect nadal to continue with the time violations.
If the worst thing you can say about nadal is that he takes a few too many seconds between points, BIG DEAL!! It does not take anything away from his as a player, or cause his opponents to lose to him.

Everyone seems pre-occupied with arguing whether players take too long to serve. I am unsure about when the timing starts. Do you start as soon as the last point is over? When they start looking at the balls? When exactly does the timing of serve begin?

is there's anyone here can tell me how the point system for atp rankings do...

okay.. nadal is not tennis king
i hope all of you got that fact right

Let's get real about time violations. There are alot of players who are over the limit and they don't ever get warned. Beyond that you are talking about the best player on tour right now, do you really think a chair umpire is going to have the cajones to take a point from Rafa at this point. Great players get exceptional treatment in any sport. Do think Michael Jordan got away with a few more fouls? How about how many times Jack Nicklaus was warned for slow play? Never happened. So you can whine about the fact that Rafa's slow, but you better get used to it because as long as he is No. 2 pushing towards No. 1 nothings changing. Oh, by the way he doesn't win all these matches because of slow play, no?

No one is saying Rafa is the "tennis king." Clearly Federer has more titles, yeas at number one, etc... It is just exciting to see a possible shake up in the rankings because fed has dominated for so long (which is unbelievable!!. The rivarly between the two of them is great for tennis and fun to watch/talk about. It reminds me of the Sampras-Agassi rivalry and how every one seemed to choose a side and defend their man.

Although, you can not deny his dominance this year. Don't forget he has won the most titles and matches this year. He also leads the head to head record against Fed. Rafa may not have as many titles or has ever been number one but, he has established his dominance in this sport (especially this year!), and over Fed.

Rafa still has a while to go before he is grouped in with the GOAT, but he seems to be on the right track : )

I agree with dnrood. You never hear about other players and their violations because they aren't one of the best players, no one cares what they do. And, if no one else is getting penalized at all or consistently, then why should he be penalized?

Ku,

I also would like to know when the clock starts in between points. Is it immediately following the end of the previous point? Is it when the player is handed the balls for serve? Is it after the chair announces the score? Does anyone know? Is there a written statement that clearly defines this?

the answer is in the bible :
http://www.atptennis.com/en/common/T...P_Rulebook.pdf

o) Continuous Play / Delay of Game
Following the expiration of the warm-up period, play shall be continuous and a player shall not unreasonably delay a match for any cause. A maximum of twentyfive (25) seconds shall elapse from the moment the ball goes out of play until the time the ball is struck for the next point. If such serve is a fault, then the second serve must be struck by the Server without delay. The exception is at a ninety (90) second changeover or a one hundred twenty (120) set break. The procedures for enforcing this rule are as follows:
i) 25 Seconds Between Points.
1. Start stopwatch when the player is ordered to play or when the ball goes out of play;
2. Assess Time Violation or Code Violation if the ball is not struck for the next point within the twenty-five (25) seconds allowed. There is no time warning prior to the expiration of the twenty-five (25) seconds.
ii) Changeover (Ninety (90) Seconds) and Set Break (One Hundred and Twenty (120) Seconds).
1. Start stopwatch the moment the ball goes out of play;
2. Announce “Time” after sixty (60) / ninety (90) seconds have elapsed;
3. Announce “15 Seconds” if one or both of the players are still at their chair