first

[Speaking of which, the way Dementieva and Schnyder played today reminded me of that wonderful line about a bacon-and-egg breakfast. The egg is involved, but the bacon is committed.]

LOL Pete, that's a great analogy for some tennis matches.

"I think Dementieva has a good shot - if she attacks Jankovic's serve."

Pete,
I agree with you but for some reason, players are not attacking that 2nd serve consistently or Jelena serve is slower than average so the returner has to create their own pace and sometimes, this leads to errors.

What a heartbreaking comment by Patty! It is true that so much innate talent gets routinely blown away by bigger, stronger players with nary a whiff more than brute power to offer. I am glad Dementieva is doing so well. She somehow does not come across as a ball-basher; there is an elegance about her, and a deep desire to construct points, which is why she rallies so well.

Venus, a GIRLY game? You must be kidding me. It is a manly game learned by an inattentive girl.

"In fact, Schnyder's player box was occupied by a sole supporter, her husband, whose presence somehow made the box look even bigger - and emptier. I felt a little sad for Schnyder,"

I have never seen this guy before but I am familiar with the creepy circumstances that brought him and Patty together. So I am sure I am not saying anything new here, but wow, does he look shifty. At one point when the camera was fixed on Patty's husband he was so fidgety that I thought the tennis should implement drug testing for coaches.

I have a lot of mixed feelings of Dementieva. Is she good looking, or not? Do I like to watch her play or not(I'm a fan of the manly game)? But I've made up my mind, Dementieva looks good if you see her from the front, and I'm backing her to win the title. It hurts my J.J. sympathies to say that.

Also, I wouldn't say that Serena has a manly game. I wouldn't describe either Williams as girly in any sense of the word, but Serena doesn't have that rounded quality to her abilities that seems to define this idea of a Manly game. Have you seen this woman hit a backhand slice? It's horrible, I can hit a backhand slice better than that. And she doesn't have that polished, technically sound look to her movement or strokes-better than Venus but still far from graceful(think Henin or even Ms.Girly-Dementieva). If anything Venus' willingness to attack the net is more of a manly quality.

I always thought that Schnyder is an example of how hard it actually is to do something that seems easy.

We all well know that the key to winning tennis matches is not winners, but your opponents errors. This concept of "forced" errors, I think badly obscures the reality -- if you plan on winning a match winners is not the way to do it.

With that knowledge, it would seem to follow that all you need to do is figure out what bothers your opponent and then keep giving them that shot.

Oh how easy to say -- but who can actually do it? Knowing that Roger Federer seemed to have a problem with high topspin to his backhand, did not help the rest of the tour over the last four years.

And, you can come up with example after example. Schnyder so clearly hits shot after shot that, while certainly are not winners, definitely bother her opponents. Yet, how could you possible teach a kid to play this way?

Andy Murray is the same sort of creature.

By comparison, Demetieva is a perfect example of a player who designs their game to minimize errors -- remember, hitting most balls hard, the same speed is one sure way to minimize your own errors -- i.e., do not vary your own shots too much.

What a fun match it must have been to watch.

Other than the fact that Dementieva must be setting some sort of record for a very attractive player wearing the least attractive clothing possible. I'm not sure how she manages to keep doing it. Does Yonex actually have a design department?

I can't remember one compelling high profile womens match at the Open so far...........it must be hard for Mr. Bodo to try to give equal time...........hats off for the effort!!

Hello Pete interesting take on the Dementieva-Schnyder match,

I found the closing comments quite sad. I agree with you that Schnyder is very talented but her mental 'weirdness' coupled with her lack of power must be so disheartening and i think all credit to her that she has continued to compete at such a high level for so many years when she feels that there is not a lot she can do against physically stronger players. In as much as we revel in our favoured players annihilating their opponents it must be so hard on the loosing side to continue fighting what must feel like a loosing battle.

ps - darthhelmethead(lurker in reform) - re your comments.
Are you saying that Serena has the 'girly' game and Venus the 'manly' game?

Ever since Patty married to this guy, her career has been good. Of course this is after that weird OJ incident. I'm a fan of Patty and can't really say anything bad about her other than her lack of mental toughness.

Like a man who throws like a girl, this article apparently was written like a 'girly-girl'.

I just found most of this offensive. Talking about their outfits and they way they look. Do you write articles about the men's game with this focus? I don't think so.

"High above Arthur Ashe stadium, you could hear the flapping wings of a squadron of pigs."

What is this sentence suppose to mean?

I would like to know, who is suppose to be the 'dumpster-diver'?

If your going to use these terms, it is Schynder has the "girly" (finesse) game and Dementieva has the "manly" game (minus the serve).

Only a girl could have written this.

"Although most of us (meaning men - really?) tend to be drawn to the parts of Dementieva that are above and between her shoulders and below her knees" Really? You like her for her mind and her feet?

This statement says it all about Schnyder.

"For me, it's very tough to get my game together against the top players - they are so strong. If she (Dementieva) plays that well, I just have to accept it. I don't really know how to improve my game enough to play at that level."

Obviously, Schynder is happy right where she is. Unfortunate for Schynder and the game.

And this says it all about the writer. No respect here.

"That meant I could wander over there, stretch my legs, soak up a little sun, and get my mind bent without having to worry about what some big dog named Federer or Williams was doing while I screwed around."

Obviously, it was not a competitive match but is this how you write about it? Offensive.

Tennis fan - you ever hear this strange, distant, fainty whistling sound that makes you think something (other than pigs) is flying over your head? But thanks for weighing in, anyway.

To clarify, I meant that Richard Williams' home-brewed teaching methods, outside of the influences of the in-tennis culture, have rendered his girls' games androgenous when working within Pete's formula. Neither Venus nor Serena have the defining characteristics to say that either one plays girly or manly. The sheer power, inconsistancy, athleticism, and ability to attack the net(or be ambiguous toward it) is a completely unique cocktail. Bare in mind that this is not a criticism of either sister.

Pete, your classification of girly v. manly is a really fun way to look at things, but there are holes in trying to concretely put players into anyone category. Not that there's anything wrong with that in an informal blog like this(pay attention tennis fan). Pete, you can say whatever you want, as crassly as you want to. I may not always agree with you, but I will always give you your props for letting things hang out there.

hi pete.

i didn't quite get what you mean with your concept of a "girly game".
i think i got the idea when you gave examples of women who play the girly game and women who play the manly game but then you followed it up with your definition of a girly game as "conservative, reined-in, no-frills game". that's where i got confused.

anyway, maybe im just slow.

*Other than the fact that Dementieva must be setting some sort of record for a very attractive player wearing the least attractive clothing possible. I'm not sure how she manages to keep doing it. Does Yonex actually have a design department?*

It's the same company that sends out David Nalbandian looking like a school bus.

Hewitt's Yonex kit is always decent, though.

I don't think anyone has taken advantage of Sharapova's injury and Henin's retirement more than Dementieva.
She beat Peer 62 60 in Melbourne, but then had to play Sharapova, who buried everyone she played at the Australian Open.
Since then she won the Olympic Gold medal, which Justine chose not to defend. And Sharapova couldn't play.
Now she's 2 wins away from #1. She had never been ranked higher than #4.

Pete, great piece, I love the WTA, and I think Demmy will beat Jankovic.

Just more sexist, redneck crap.

According to Oscar Wegner in his book he writes about the Williams girls, "According to their father Richard, they watched my televised lessons in the early 1990s. Although my instruction portrayed unconventional tennis teaching, he told me: "It made sense." (p 131).

Patty is still the most entertaining player on the women's tour. I never get tired of watching her. But...so many finals, so few titles. I feel for her. I would rather have one Patty than four Ivanovics. And while she is correct that physically stronger players give her too much trouble, there is also the mental part. I remember, a few years ago in Charleston, Patty told the entire crowd "I have trouble with emotions, with my feelings."

Speaking as a man how can anyone question Elena's looks? Plus calling her features "horsey" is nuts. A stunning pair of deep blue eyes and a beautiful smile doesn't qualify as horsey in my book!!

Onto her game

The poor girl cant seem to get any respect. She's been in the top 20 for a decade and spent most of that in the top 10. She's got to the last eigght of every grand slam multiple times and owns 2 Olympic medals. Give her her due for crying out loud!!

She's worked really hard on her serve, I know what is like to play with that handicap, and off the ground she is as good as anyone on the Tour and far better than most.

Pete, thanks for an interesting piece, though I'm not sure I quite followed your "girly-manly game" breakdown. (Maybe I need to go re-read it.)

I must admit, Lena D's game has been looking ever more solid in the last several months - especially her serve. =) What a turnaround that is, eh? At least the girl who hated her serve was willing to go out and do something to improve it, instead of simply allowing it to handicap her for the rest of her career. That speaks of a lot of commitment and determination, and I think it could bear some fruit in the next several months...if not sooner. I think she has a good shot to beat JJ on Friday (There Will Be Drama), and she matches up pretty well with everyone from the to half of the bracket, except maybe Venus.

Naw....Lena D, USO Champ 2008 and WTA Number 1?

Too weird, and definitely not the Russian I was thinking would be on top. But she's got the game, she's been consistent in her results, and hey, pigs flew the other day. Why not again?

Hey Pete, great article. I was laughing the whole way through. I'm glad you did a piece on Patty. She is one of favorite WTA players and I love watching her play. It's also very frustrating to follow her and her on-court meltdowns!!!! However, she gives players fits and it's fun to watch her game.

Finally a post other than about a mens game, and it's an insulting post towards the women!

Lena is one of the most entertaining players in tennis, and the main reason I love tennis.

Shes an emotional person who sometimes gets overwhelmed by her feelings, mainly in important stages of the tournament. But when shes on song she can do it all.

If you like Mens tennis, its okay by me, but just dont comment on womens tennis, if you dont know what your talking about!

pete I like this straight male perspective you so boldly use here and make no apologies for. It's honest. Upon first read I was thinking "uh oh the ladies who read this aren't gonna like it". I think you are qualified to write about these gender symbols because you seem to have a healthy dose of manly and girly yourself because you show both in your writing. And you are quite the fashion reporter as well! I really enjoy your writing and this blog is something trully special so thanks!

Pete -- I enjoyed your article.

Thanks.

This article is partly entertaining, partly a mess.

I'm gonna leave the girly-man stuff alone and focus on Dunlop's comments for a moment, with which I totally agree. I love watching Schnyder play -- her looping forehand, her variety, her angles, her ability to throw a steady baseliner off her game, all great talents.

Pete does have a point that she could improve her fitness and leg strength some and perhaps take it to the next level if she can keep her on court emotions in check.

But I guess you could say that about a lot of players.

Pete, I love this article, largely because I've been thinking on similar lines and so I feel clever because you thought it too :-)

Safina puts her improvement down to 'playing more like a guy', in her won words: hitting heavy rather than flat, coming in more, big serves, including a great kicker. And obviously the two best women of modern times, or even ever (Serena and Justine) both play games more reminiscent of the men; serena because her game is based around a magnificent serve, which she can hold; Justine because of her range of spins, courtcraft and athleticism.

It's a same Schnyder's settled. Remember, this is the girl who took down Steffi Graf with no problems a decade ago; who beat Serena in her pomp in Charleston; who beat Justine Henin ON CLAY!!!! I think her unbelievable skills would have been more than enough to win a slam or two - do you really think Myskina, Kuzzie or even Sharapova are better players?

As for the men: Nadal is obviously the new Seles - he even grimaces the same way when he's not sure about something, scrunching the top corner of his mouth upwards towards his nose. Let's hope he never has to play Hamburg, or perhaps Basel...

I wonder as well if the girly game isn't a product of the different expectations which girls have for themselves: as somebody earlier pointed out here, they're often more driven as teenagers. The girly game - flat shots, often down the line, low margin for error - is much more self-consciously 'perfectionist' that typical men's play - spin, crosscourt, high margin for error. Playing with spin, and therefore having margin for error, is a tacit acknowledgement that one is fallible and prone to error. Girlies don't want to be fallible, or aren't allowed to be (quote a variety of feminists here). For men on the other hand, it's acceptable. We often see the women try to out-peftectionist each other (just wait for the williams sisters later - there isn't going to be much waiting for the error). What we're seeing in the tennis is who gets to be the princess, or the ballerina.

Markic - glad to see you know just what I meant, and that you were able to articulate some aspects of it better than did I. Of course, you can't push the stereotypes too far, because there's significant crossover in these two different approaches. But I stand by them; btw, Ana Ivanovic strikes me as a player trying mightily to avoid the girly game and develop a manly one. . . perhaps it's a useful example

Good comments by DM, Tennis Fan, Peter J, and Markic, if I can take a cornucopia of opinions. Just hearing McEnroe give Dementieva some props. She could definitely use some media respect. I remember the Charleston tourney a few years ago when Majoli beat Schnyder in a battle of intersecting destinies: Iva getting a slam and a few big titles to retire an overachiever, Patty failing in nearly every later round pressure situation she's ever found herself still slugging away without ever realizing her potential. Sad, I guess. BTW, if you like Patty vs. Lena melodrama, check out their Aus Open epic from a few years ago.

Mr. Bodo, I'm afraid you injected the gendered terms into your categorization theory, so us commenters can't be blamed for utterly dismantling it. Might as well delete those two paragraphs.

Ana strikes me as the sort of hybrid: she hits pretty flat, is more in the big babe mould, yet has a game based around a big serve. Her patterns of play are definitely more like the men, in that she dictates by walloping forehands then coming in. Let's hope she gets it together. What she really needs now is a backhand down the line, so that she can become Safin - oh no, wait, we already have a female one of those - man this is confusing!