laura i am now going through my cd of them i will get bck to you shortly

Glad its 32 days. Havent bought any christmas presents yet at all.
Christmas is the best day of the year.

Maha!!!

Mancini had the obligation to think about the risks of Juanma´s trip and think who would be the better suited player to substitute him if he was unfit or sick to do the job during the final. Was Chucho the best option? Or perhaps the second best option? Fact is that none of the other argentine players were top fit for the job either because of injuries, low ranking or whatever. We could argue though that Monaco has more solid shots than Chucho and is usually fitter, but he has a less reliable serve and came back from illnes (neumonia) a couple of months ago.

The problem with Juanma is that he is unfit since Vienna ... We all knew this, but the fact is that his game is so big, that he could hide it quite well. And continued to win matches. He trashed Ancic no? Won against Tsonga.

All right, NP, sorry for ruining the intellectual thread!

sblily - interesting points.

That was me @ 2:28 PM, in case that's not clear.

Laura, try Led Zeppelin IV. If you don't like it then you're never gonna be a LZ fan.

Huh? What are you talking about, jewell?

Thanks NP. I had heard that was a good one to try. I do like some led zepplin was listening to the wanton song earlier from an old tape and liked that song.

Nonsense probably, as usual, NP.

I thought you were quoting Thatcher at me, so I thought I'd just apologise in the faint hope that you would not do it again. Sorry if I misjudged you. :)

zeppelin I should have said

I think felllowship in the Spanish team starts with #1 Rafa in terms of leadership and personal qualities. He is open, sincere, energetic, a pleasure to be with, no iritating diva-ish qualities. Someone like that unites and strengthens team spirit and good nature from everyone.

np i know you dont like Chritmas,is there any time of the year,you do like?

laura Led Zepplin,Mothership,its the best of them,on 2 cd's all their great music,from early days to the virtual present befor they spit up,in my mind Jimmy Page,broke up the greatest Rock and Roll Band ever,Robert Plant,rock god,hunk,spunk,wow,i would go to stairway to heaven with him anyday,that guy rocked my soul,to see them live,i will never,ever forget.

Right on Vie. How am I going to survive without Rafa until January?? :(

sorry, some obvious typos in my previous post.

NP, Laura. It's the only LZ album I ever bought (since stolen), and I knew I'd never be a big fan.

jewell, I was just trying to piss off all collectivists, so I guess you could say I was quoting Thatcher at you. :)

Thanks AM. I will have a look around for the cd.

np i know you dont like Chritmas,is there any time of the year,you do like?"
AM, I think NP says things like those for effect and not because he really means them

Vie well said our our boy,he is one special person,also i think we can give some due to his parents,also to Uncle Toni,who has had a great influence with rafa,not only as a coach,but as he says as a uncle,vamos.

AM, what makes you think I actually don't like Christmas?

Ha, NP, I knew it! :)

Anyway am off to cook supper and watch University Challenge. Hopefully back later once I've thought about Pete's post a bit more.

sher @ 1:12 wrote: *Also, Pete, I like the way you mentioned the feeling of comradership in the spanish team, and how it reflects on Rafa's character, considering he could so easily be envied his top position.*

To me, the unity of the Spaniards was striking--their including Rafa, Robredo and Almagro in their post-match comments, e.g. And there was no back-biting or blaming either. When Rafa was interviewed, he started out by praising Verdasco, then Lopez, and I held my breath wondered whether he would find something positive to say about Ferru--and of course, he did. Such an admirable group of young men.

vanessa no,Np dosent like Christmas,because he is tight,he burns cd's and gives them as presents? i rest my case.

Vanessa, you know me better than many longstanding TWers. :) But of course I ain't telling which times I'm serious (or not).

AM, lol
I guess by being tight you mean cheap?
that was so funny!

that was moi at 2:42 quoting and expanding on something that sher posted.

Np because of the cost,for one thing,too commercial?

Later, jewell.

AM, but you don't know whether I give away CHRISTMAS presents. :)

But NP I know by now. That is if I am not mixing you up with some other poster, lol
But seriously I appreciate your efforts for keeping things interesting and spicy here specially when there's no tennis. The down side is that after doing it for a while your ability to bait most posters diminishes

anway moi is excited,hubby will be home on Thursday.with belated birthday present,gee it better be good or else,also forgot wedding anniversary,well that nothing,never remembers anyway.

AM, I don't mind the commercial aspect at all. In fact I'd gladly buy Christmas stuff just to piss off anti-commercial activists.

good night jewell

Vanessa, I don't need to bait anyone. As long as I've annoyed a fair share of 'em I've done my job. :)

Came back to say, NP, I just got that joke properly. Slow brain decade...I know.

But, lol. :))

Bye Jewell!

Folks
This is a reminder that this is an on topic thread. Please conduct all off topic discussions on the aftermath thread.
thanks

NP, I am sure you have. pat on the back to you!
by the way you haven't annoyed me yet (on the contrary)

oops I guess that means me, so I'm off guys.
Later

yes sorry moderator,we did go off topic somewhat

Vanessa, good question. Well the important holidays coming up. I have a niggling worry (hehe) about his knee injury

Vie, I think Rafa is going to be Ok. I am ready for a AO victory for him!
Anyway, I really gotta go now.

vie well if rafa can water ski,where you put a lot of pressure on your knees,they must not be tto bad,also reports i have read,his drs have given him,three weeks,so he can start training again

by the way,accoeding to Sydney Medibank officials,i have already posted this info,they are trying to get bot rafa and andy murray to play,will inform if i get any more news on this.

Good for you, jewell.

Later, Vanessa.

Moderator (or ptenisnet, judging by the style), didn't know this was an on-topic thread. My bad. Guess there's no YC for today then.

Sorry Mod.
Well Im off then. Dont actually have anything tennis related to say. Bye!

Call me right or call me brilliant. Just call me for dinner.

It's easy for me, on my lunch break, to negatively judge Del Potro for going to Shanghai, instead of putting all of his eggs in the Davis Cup basket. So, I'll go ahead and do so.

Like the esteemed Argentinian poet, Guillermo Vilas, and others said, a Davis Cup victory would have furthered Argentinian tennis (which, admittedly, is already strong) considerably. Why risk such a victory by trying to pull the difficult Master Cup finals/Davis Cup finals double--especially when you already have that toe injury, which is serious enough to bring up repeatedly? Furthermore, toe injuries can increase susceptibility to other injuries--just ask Dizzy Dean.

Additionally, if Del Potro is as good as advertised (in some circles), he should have plenty of additional opportunities to be in the Master Cup finals and he should be able to afford a vacation to Shanghai. But opportunities to participate and win the Davis Cup finals AT HOME are once in a lifetime opportunities, if that.

Alex Corretja won the Masters Cup final in 1998. How many Spaniards give a rat's behind today about that accomplishment? What they care about are Davis Cup championships. Ask Corretja if, he had his choice, whether he could only have either that Masters Cup final victory or his 2000 Davis Cup trophy, which one he would take. Let me know what he answers.

B/c I was rooting for Spain, I'm glad Del Potro went off to China. However, I think doing so was a mistake from the perspective of furthering Argentinian tennis and, ultimately, his legacy as a player.

Incidentally, there was a report that, in training, Del Potro so seriously bit his tongue, that it bled seriously. That seems like a very odd tennis training injury. Hopefully, the injury was of the freakish variety and not symptomatic of something more serious.

Some very interesting ideas raised here, Pete. And I tend to agree with most of what you've posited. But in the end, I'd rather think positively rather than negatively, and credit Feliciano Lopez with stealing this tie. He played brilliantly when he needed to, and helped to keep Verdasco focused in the doubles, which in my mind was the match that determined the outcome. Lopez's win over Del Potro made a victory possible, even likely, but all but ensuring a 2-1 edge going into Day 3 (the duo of Lopez-Verdasco are a seasoned team and have played eight Davis Cup matches together, more than enoough to tip the scales in their favor.

Having said this, I also believe that Del Potro's injury had an impact on the outcome of thar all-important Day 1 singles rubber. Interesting, wasn't it, that Acasuso also suffered from an injury in his Cup-deciding loss against Verdasco? One could see those two events as unusually bad luck, but again I'd focus on the fine play of Lopea dn Verdasco. There are many ways to lose a match, but to win you must be in position to earn a match pint and then win it. THey both did what was necessary.

YOu may be onto something about the ferociously individualistic nature of the Argentine spirit, but it would be conjecture at this point. THe truth about that may come out in time. Meanwhile, I'll give Lopez and Verdasco their due. They played inspired tennis. Was Nadal's absence the inspiration? That's more conjecture.

Lastly, a team that has won the Cup twice will have a sanse of entitlement that a team that has lost the Cup in the finals four times won't. I think this may be the real backstory.

A few things to keep in mind, which occur to me as I troll through the comments:

1 - As much as David N. may have "wanted" it, I think there were things he might have done to increase his chance of getting it, just like a child's chance of getting the toy he wants for Christmas are increased if he or she eats his vegetables and does his or her homework. Since does degree of "wanting" have any bearing on whether one ought or ought not to get?

2 - A signficant number of the comments on del Potro seem to work on the premis that JMD would have won the match if he weren't injured, and that's terribly unfair to F. Lopez, especially when you saw the way the match was flowing at the time of the injury.

3 - I appreciate the support for Nalbandian and Argentina, and while I guess you can call it a "learning experience", that description is, well, an almost comical understatement. When you look at how it all played out, the most appropriate words are "debacle" or "disaster." I mean, the Titanic was a "learning experience" too, but that's not really the point, is it?

The most important of these points is no. 2.

slice and dice,
Pete,

I agree. There are many ways to lose a match, but one to win it. Del Potro was injured after already being behind. Lopez is way below him in the rankings and the crowd was giving DP full support. Lopez won in very difficult conditions.

He later said about the doubes win something like" we were togethere more. When I was down physically, Fernando helped me during the match. "

Again, determination and team spirit.

pete yes i agree with you,on your no 2 point,we are not giving credit,where credit is due,to me Feli,showed,utter compsure on court,he displayed this,not on in his singles play,also in the doubles with Verdasco,hey,has he come of age,after this Davis Cup,or was it there before? maybe a bit of both,maybe playing in the final of the Davis Cup for Spain,it was pushed to the fore front,well done.

Pete
I dont know whether the JMDP injury argument was as much about day 1 as day 3. He was effectively a non starter for day 3 which meant that they had to rely on chucho (and as much as I love the redemption story line, this was a long shot).
So it might be more unfair to Ferrer or Verdasco than it is to FLDG.

I did agree in my mind about your point that if Nalbandian really really wanted DC championship, Nalbandian could have found a way to win. The doubles was just one game but he was tame in some of his mistakes there. I was thinking in the end, inside he felt not capable himself. It is probabbly related to work ethic.

I agree with pete that nalbandian should be blamed for the doubles loss, both because of his lack of leadership skills and that atrocious backhand volley in the tiebreak.

Pete,

You say a player's true warrior moment depends on the player, but also on the stage and the opponent. If any of the three is a letdown, that's just tough luck. The stage and the opponent don't rise high enough very often, and you have to jump when you get your chance. When you write a piece like this, Pete, when you rise to the stage and the subject, you're an absolute joy to read.

Harsh, and completely in line with all the intangibles. And beyond that, a great life lesson.

Excellent.

Hi all!!!!!!!!!!!!! Again... disappeared to do homework!! Back!!

Sher... I actually had a low-nutrition day!!! LOL.

Oh where did Laura go????? :(

manuelsantanafan, the problem with your reasoning is that the Master Cup finals/Davis Cup finals double isn't a zero-sum game. A healthy player could easily achieve both, given that he has the talent. To repeat my earlier comment, if dP already had a serious or even likely injury going into Shanghai then I'd say you have a point. But as far as I know, he didn't.

Pete, I can't speak for others, but I sure didn't mean to discount Lopez's performance, or say that dP would've won but for the injury. Also we should consider the possibility that his thighs (or toes--don't know exactly which one) might have been troubling him before he took the medical timeout. We don't know how the match would've turned out under the best of circumstances, but I do know dP's injury itself is a legitimate issue that can be discussed without diminishing Lopez's performance.

Nalbandian probably was really disheartened by del Potro's loss. Add to that the pressure he put on himself for a DC win. I think just simple joy being in DC Finals, hard work most-year-round, no extreme build-up or fiddling, are parts of a better recipe for Nalbandian next time. Even if he loses again, it might still be considered more a success.

when we are quikly to blame and point the finger here,lets us remember, Nalbandian played great tennis in his singles match,was he rushed in to the doubles team,becaause of the fact Del Potro lost his singles game,of course he was,he was there knight in shiny armour,he was the one,who could single handed win this cup for Argentina,hey,this is a team effort,maybe in the end,its was all too much for him.

ptenisnet, I forgot to add that point. I do think a healthy dP would've won against Ferru or Verdasco, certainly judging by the way they played this past weekend. Even if dP had lost on day 1 to Lopez he could've redeemed himself on day 3 with a win over either Spaniard.

Emilio Sanchez should receive much credit, even more so than he is already receiving. Dealing with the nonsense the Spanish Tennis Federation and Munoz generate as well as knuckleheads like Verdasco is probably even harder in practice than it would be appear to be when reading about it.

Among the many impressive things Lopez did this weekend was, on Saturday, complimenting Verdasco for holding the doubles team together when Lopez was (according to Lopez) feeling weak and not playing well.

From what I saw, it was Verdasco who was screwing up out there while Lopez was playing steadily. Seemed that Lopez's comments were designed to increase Verdasco's confidence, which may have helped in Verdasco's singles match.

Sorry, Moderator, got carried away...:(

Pete, I agree with your point 1, by wanting it too much I only meant to say that this maybe interfered with David's judgment.

and don't forget the schedule aspect in regards to jmdp in shanghai (if nobody mentioned this)......dc being the following weekend...do i/we not recall there being an extra week between yec and dc in the past?....yes, more rest for dc players before '09, but less for the dc competitors coming from yec

"manuelsantanafan, the problem with your reasoning is that the Master Cup finals/Davis Cup finals double isn't a zero-sum game. A healthy player could easily achieve both, given that he has the talent."

see: Roddick 2007

Pete,

This time Nalbandian worked to be fit for this tie, he played indoor tournaments 4 weeks in a row doubles and singles and brought himself into fitness and life again after an unremarkable season to finish as the 11th ranked player and fit for Davis Cup. If he would have won Paris and fought until the last point, he would have even finished inside the top ten and better ranked than Del Potro.

His mistakes this time were also outside the court but it seems related to his behaviour in connection with the political and economical connotations of this tie and the chose of the venue, where it seems he was an interested party.

Some fight going on with the MOD????? :0

KEWWWLLL. :D

Ok so I guess I'll hafta start talking on-topic. Wait... umm... what IS the topic?

Since I take it to be anything tennis-related... I'll start by stating how amazingly amazing I think Roger Federer is and how much faith I have in him to come strong next season.
And also how disappointed I am in JMDP's Davis Cup performance (he hardly DID anything!!!) Though I guess he can't be blamed.... tired ol' young thing. :(

Wait... I'm supposed to be HAPPPEEEEEE. And spreading the JOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Happy-ness-ness to ALL!!!!! Plus the bourbon creams that were stacked up in the Sixth Form common room in my school today that I did not manage to get because a load of hungry ol' girls finished 'em off as soon as I entered. :(

Ok Maha... happy thoughts... happy thoughts... think of the five free periods you have tomorrow.... think of the biscuits and tea you can have during that time!!!!!!!!!!! YEAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

I will not cry for Argentina... although I was close to tears on seeing how devastated Acasuso was and although I am very disappointed about the collapse of the Argentina team. As a loooooong-time Davis Cup junkie, I was really hoping that Argentina would end its run as the only significant tennis power that has not won the Davis Cup.

One of the frequent criticisms we hear about DC is that it is played too often -- shouldn't be every year, winners have a minute to enjoy being champion being having to start their defense etc etc. But I have to say that I am eagerly looking forward to the start of the 2009 DC season. Will Argentina, as we'd expect, brush the Netherlands aside? Will Djokovic and Serbia, as we might not expect, rise up and crush the 2008 champions? Remember, this is Davis Cup where anything can happen.

I cannot wait!

ATP schedule with the Masters in Shangai and the Final in Argentina is just crazy, Emilio Sanchez also pointed that yesterday.

Racheal- excellent point. Didn't Moya also do the TMC (it was in Houston) and DC double in 2004?

Ruth, i echo your sentiments,regarding Davis Cup tennis,to me over the years,i have witnessed some exciting Cup ties,with different countries,as a Aussie,wow,we were one of the leading contenders,hey,back in the good old days,interesting,i see USA is still leading,with the most Davis Cups on their mantle,though aussies are second,close behind.

Ack, I am already frazzling about the Spain-Serbia tie.

Incidentally, the player substitutions made by both Spain and Argentina served to remind me once more the thin ice on which the USA skates with Bob and Mike Bryan as its 3rd and 4th players. A loss plus a weak performance or a pulled muscle by/for Andy or James on Day 1 and ????!!!!

It is precisely because of this situation why I was one of the few DC fans who did not berate Patrick McEnroe for taking his time before adding the Bryans to the USA team.

Carrie - indeed Moya did the double in 2004, as did Roddick, I just used 2007 for Andy's example because USA won last year. more impressive to do both and be on a winning team, right? (a la Moya in '04)

NP
1. if it doesn't say it's an off-topic thread, it means it's an on-topic thread. Usual designated off-topic threads are Your Call, Monday Net Post and Deuce Club.
2. Moderators are un-named for a reason, and there may be more of us than you think there are. We don't appreciate unfounded guessing games over who modded what.

Very interesting. As is usually the case, I'm with Slice-n-Dice and agree with his take.

I usually stand up in here to defend the wayward, likable bad-boy Nalby, and will do so again now, though I missed that crucial second match loss.

But surely the doubles was close enough to go either way, and Nalby is not responsible for another guy's injury. Pete's column seems a bit like too much hindsight 20-20, where all predispositions are confirmed, given the result. If somehow Argentina pulled through, I doubt all credit would have been given to Nalby, so why dump it all on him now?

Also, there is this: Acasuso?

Over the years I think it's fair to say Nalby has been a tenacious and formidable DC player, surely a DC top-tier player by any measure, and the country has accomplished a great deal over a fairly short period of time, tennis-wise.

Now you can add Lopez to that list; I also prefer to give him credit than speculate about another country or athlete's internal shortcomings, though I agree it is obvious that Nalby has plenty (that's why I like him!)

Finally, if Argentina comes back storming through DC next year I would suggest Pete's comments re: Titanic and "learning experience" might have a different gloss.

Why, Rachael, wasn't expecting that. Yeah, Roddick had a great run at the end of 2007. A YEC SF and a DC title? Many a player can only dream.

jewell please not need to feel frazzled,we have all seen what Spain is all about,over this weekend,stay cool,always a good look.

ach I've been frazzled about USA/Switzerland for as long as I can remember. just now it is extending to DC.

I don't need much of an excuse to frazzle, I must say.

But it's not like Serbia doesn't have some decent players outside Djokovic. There's lovely Tipsy for example.

I hate being British and watching Davis Cup. Was Henman not winning Wimbledon not enough heartbreak??? (I like Henman, just to make it clear.)

Mod, not sure I was playing a "game," but point taken. Henceforth the game will be played only in my mind. I'm guessing that's not against TW policy.

random thought:

So technically, isn't Serbia going into the 2009 first round tie against Spain as huge underdogs in a similar way Spain went to Argentina? Shall we speculate on the outcome of that tie and whether Spain would fare better as overwhelming favourites?

Sher, add to my frazzle, why don't you? :)

But yes, exactly. Exactly!

Todd and in Charge, I like your post, but I think the whole _point_ of Pete's post is that we can't dump it all on Nalbandian but that Nalbandian has had a huge impact on the team dynamic in Argentina and that the team as a whole failed.

Well, everyone, I have no problem whatsoever with anyone trying to find reasons for why this or that player lost, but count me in the camp that thinks del Potro's participation in Shanghai is neither here nor there. He's young, hungry, probably relishing every opportunity he gets to make a statement. All that will change over time, especially if he's successful enough to no longer sweat the small (or semi-big) stuff, and also discovers his priorities. But as I alluded to earlier, at some point you have to just look at what you saw before you and ask the most basic question: did the guy get the job done, and why (or why not)based on the most immediate, real-time factors. The real question in my mind is, did del Potro show up to play for Argentina and find it was a little too much like playing for . . . David Nalbandian. Anyone who doubts the way chemistry and pressure and interact only need look at that upset of perhaps the most formidable Davis Cup squad ever assembled (John McEnroe, Jimmy Connors, Peter Fleming [in doubs] by the Mats Wilander-led Swedish squad.

Sure the match was on clay, but it was an absolute disaster for the US (it became something like a national disgrace because of the WAY the US lost, whining and complaining the entire way)and, like this tie, an epic of chemistry gone awry.

Serbia will kick Spain's culo in DC 2009.

I feel alien amongst all you "adults" and Mods. *_*
Better pass the time away by reading the Biological Sciences & Chemistry Reviews (Sep and Nov 2008 issues! Really helpful to all those struggling with AS Bio and Chem! Plus topics of great interest for all real or wanna-be scientists and doctors!!!!).....

jewell, I'd love to add to your frazzle :) You a Rafa fan, right?

Actually, if Rafa isn't playing, I will be rooting for Serbia in that tie, just because it would be so nice for them to achieve some great results while they enjoy their plentitude. But if Rafa plays, I'm back to rooting for the guy to win his matches. All in all it'll be a fascinating first round, especially with Switzerland/USA (no question who I'm rooting for there, despite my general affection for Andy Roddick).

I'm going to try to make it to the USA tie, but I'm almost afraid to check for tickets in case they've been sold out already or something. Is anyone else from TW going?

I always feel a little bad because I don't always root for my own country to win DC. I did root for them last year (I really wanted to see Roddick get a DC win as well as Blake and the BBs) but in 2004 I was rooting for Spain.

I tend to root for Argentina and Spain the most- followed by a mix of USA, France and Russia. I just love the DC and the stories that can surround it (like Luby in 2005 where he was a hero) so sometimes I also really enjoy it when I don't have a big rooting interest like in 2005 and can just watch the show.

I do hope the USA/Swtizerland tie is in San Antonio.

Rachael- yes- it has been done in the past- and great to have an example from last year..

That is why I still can't get on board with feeling that Elf should not have gone to Shanghai. Like Linex mentioned- he has been hurting in one way or another since Vienna- so we can't really say how much impact Shanghai had on him in the DC. If he had not played Shanghai- we have no idea if he could have played on Sunday. I think even if he had not played Shanghai- Lopez could have very well won the match on Friday. Lopez is a very good indoor player- his run to the Dubai finals this year was no fluke.

From now on- I am going to blame the blame game for Argentina. That needs to stop in the team. Maybe if Jaite takes the reigns he can start 2009 with some bonding exercises or something. .;)

Pete, also, count me in the camp who isn't writing the match off to del Potro if he was uninjured, not at all. In fact, I don't think the injury played much role in that second tie at all. I think it's main impact was on doubles & tie 4 results.

Thank you, Sher, and while I understand my old pal Todd's criticism, I'd say that 20-20 hindsight is better than poor hindsight, especially when hindsight is the only kind of sight in play. And in all honesty, it's not like I was calling for an Argentine sweep and had to scramble to justify a poor call. . .

Pete – nice round up on the cause of the disquiet around the argie camp. Daveed – while he played beautifully against Ferru; seemed to let his level go down a bit during the doubles. And that was the MUST win point for them, imo. Daveed, as a long term tenant in my head case stable, just wasn’t able to carry his team. He didn’t seem tired, or out of shape, but I think his mental fitness didn’t hold up through the pressure of the doubles match. The terms match tough, match fit don’t only refer to physical readiness, it’s the mental game that can kill you.

Though I was totally on the Argentine side, I’ll admit to thinking that a Spanish win, sans Rafa, would be a great story and particularly sweet for the team. Because really, those Spanish boyos, like the US team, epitomize the best of the team spirit and camaraderie, and you’ve got to love them for that. (Even if you’re rooting against them, lol!)

I also think depending on JMDP for points was an incredible amount of pressure, but really, what else could they have done? Sadly, I do think his injury hit him just as he was finding his feet against Feliciano, but regardless, it was still very much a crap shoot whether he could pull it off. Feliciano, my OTHER little headcase in this race, was playing great, and very steadily. (I was rooting him on like mad – I confess!)

To me the heroes of the weekend were Lopez for getting that critical first singles point and for pulling Verdasco through the doubles. The confidence Verdasco gained from that match enabled him to hold on and dig out when his nerves were going south in his singles match. And of course, poor Chucho, coming in cold off little to no match play, played his heart out, and though he didn’t win, I still completely heart him for his effort.

There’s no way to point to 1 thing that lost the argies the cup; there were a lot of little things, both in and out of their control. Poor service games, injuries, lack of preparation, missed shots. Change any one thing and maybe the result would have been different. We’ll never know.

(But I shall be rooting like made for the Argentines next year, unless they come up against either the US or Swiss team! GO Davis cup!)

Sher, the operative phrase there is "tie 4."

"Serbia will kick Spain's culo in DC 2009."

LOL NP, is your crystal ball making you do the talking again? The wal-mart one? Or this is a new kind of future-telling device? With 300% more accuracy as compared to the old ball! (Which still isn't saying much)

Though I wouldn't mind it happening....

Sher, thanks and I see your point but I simply found Pete a bit too reductionist here:

"But if you want a more quantifiable analysis, I'd say that Lopez did all the anyone could ask, and that Nalbandian did not. Sure, Nalbandian ripped through his opening singles. But if he was as much the focal point of Argentina's effort as appears to be the case, he should have found a way to lead Argentina to a doubles win. Oh, I know the objections you could raise on the score, but I don't buy into them. You want to be the hero, you find a way to get it done. End of story."

Again, I think this is partly true, and partly not. Perhaps like Moses, Nalby was destined to get them to the final and Del Potro to the promised land, but an injury is an injury and if there is any validity to the idea that these players are getting injured because they play too much and for too long, than you have to at least consider whether Shanghai was a bad idea, timing-wise.

"The real question in my mind is, did del Potro show up to play for Argentina and find it was a little too much like playing for . . . David Nalbandian."

Isn't that reaching especially when there's the more obvious explanation that Delpo's body disagreed with playing for either entities and simply went on strike. Is there anything from the match that implied that Delpo wasn't as motivated as he could be? And also given the importance you place on point 2 isn't this question kind of moot?

While I'm usually open to blaming Nalby for all the ills befalling humanity this seems a bit extreme. He sucks but he's not omnipotent.

Jewell, don't dispair and don't let posters on here make you worry about Serbia. Talk about another team with mentality issues. Haven't we all seen Djoko go from playing great to looking like he's not really all that invested?
Vamos Spain!

Pete: I think that many people who have mentioned JMDP's injury were thinking more of the possibility (alluded to by NP) that, had JMDP been well enough to play Day 3, he might have been able to handle either Ferrer or Verdasco, followed by Nalby taking care of FLo. I know that's what I e-mailed to my USO tennis buddy when I came home on Saturday just in time to see Argentina lose the doubles.

Having said that, isn't it possible, also, that if JMDP were not injured in the FLo match, he could have picked up his game and won that match? I don't think that that scenario is any less likely than a player going from down 1-5 (and looking to lose the set) to bringing the score up to 6-6 OR being down 1-5 in the TB and then winning the TB. Both those things happened on Sunday, right?

So, I would not assume that, just because FLo (especially the frequently fragile FLo!) was playing very well for a period of time, a healthy del Potro could not have beaten him on Friday.

So, while we give full credit to the victors, we really do not know how a match will end until it ends...and that's why Betfair and similar companies who take bets even DURING matches are in business.:)

Sher, well, maybe I like Rafa just a little bit...:)

Part of me would like Serbia to do well but win for Spain = happy Rafa whether he plays or not so I'll stick with Spain. I'll be rooting for Switzerland in the other one as I like Roger as well.

I wonder if one could make a case for this tie being a bit of a tragedy for Argentina (disaster too), along the lines of Nalby's previous record + his fatal flaws having the most significant effect on the outcome?

Pure speculation too but I wonder if Nalbandian had said something to Elf about Shanghai before the first match even, and, if he didn't have sufficient motivation, perhaps that could be a reason why.

I guess you could also say that generally speaking the Argentine squad was all about individual moments - Chucho's Redemption story, Nalby coronation...I can't think of one for Elf so maybe not.

I remember there being comments here from Violetta and Gauloises at least that Argentina looked worried beforehand and Spain looked happier. Of course that is all hindsight but there may have been stuff going on in the background then too.

Maha, may I remind you that my old ball got all the Madrid predictions right. :)

Carrie - well don't feel too bad about not cheering the US in 2004. it was an Olympic year, Spain were always going to win. (so the legend will now go.)

this may be too OT, I really can't tell anymore, but..

despite my over all nervous dispostion on the matter of USA v Switzerland, I'd postively adore it if Roddick and Federer get to meet-again-for-the-first-time-since-that-last-time in a Davis Cup rubber on American turf.

and assuming Andy will carry on his avoidance of Roger in tour events until March, I'd find that to be a very intruiging encounter, perhaps even the usual Fed>Rod rules not applying to it.

(there is the small and potentially debilitating matter of Roddick/Dubai already keeping me in frazzles, though)

There were so many bad signals from the Argies both in the weeks and the days leading up to the tie. Which is one reason why I kept telling all the people, including pretty much everybody who posted here, who had already handed it to Argentina that it was not going to be that simple.

The other reason was of course a wish to avoid having my heart ripped into pieces when it all inevitably went south. Yeah, that didn't work out so well.

*returns to sulking*

NP.... did it? LOL. Well then it may not be such a bad ball after all! We must treat it with respect and bow down to the power of the Holy Crystal Ball of Balls.

[Moderator deleted - posters have already been asked upthread to keep on-topic here. OT comments on the DC Aftermath thread please.]

S'ok, Vanessa, I was just joking about other posters adding to the frazzle. :) - didn't mean to spread blame around. I can frazzle happily all by myself...

Maybe it all comes down to Argentina not having that solidarity that Spain had. And a lot of that would have to come down to Nalby, as senior veteran/leader.

But where is the discussion of Mancini's role? I am wondering why he could not have put the brakes on Nalbandian a little? Perhaps just because Nalby has been such a hero in the past.