From the horse's mouth (the guy who started this whole GOAT debate)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/tennis/8135332.stm

jb - FOUR things...death, taxes, trolls and CHEETOS!!!

What stood out for me most about this match is that Andy Roddick now has a backhand.

You're right, Paul.

Forget the sissy bag, and let the racket do the talking.

But just remember the Sampras's wise words: Being the best is carrying a target in your back... You don't need to underline the colors.

One thing about Roddick, I have said that he is unlucky to be in Federer's age cohort.

Another way of looking at it is that the tennis gods gave him an unbelievable gift, his serve. Forget aces, Roddick must lead the tour in total easy points won on serve. Note how this gift did not really let him down under pressure at any time today.

The only problem is that the same tennis gods gave Federer and Nadal some other gifts, and at the same time.

Dunlop-- McEnroe was asking the same thing about the Olympics. It's a good question and I really do wonder what they can do. They can't just put down sod or something for that kind of grass, can they?

Don't hit the ball at the guy? I've only been playing competitive tennis for almost 40 years, and that's the first I've heard of that. Social tennis, sure, but competitive? When I was younger, I almost always tried to go right at the net man once on a service return to see what he was made of. If he flinched or flubbed it, guess what? He got another one! And one of my regular doubles opponents still gut checks me regularly, and nobody says a thing. It's expected! Check out Johnny Mac returning a cream-puff to Lendel and standing at the net waiting for his prize: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xAPwx3z950

Time to go to bed. Just wanted to say again congratulations to both Andy Roddick and Roger Federer. Federer for gutting out a hard-fought 15th title and Roddick for making Federer gut it out. Incredible final.

And finally, shame on those who have anything negative to say about Roddick, Federer, or even Nadal (with reference to this final or last year's final). Sometimes I think some people just like to criticize just to stir the pot. For the past FIVE years, these three men have contested the Wimbledon final and ALL of them are astounding champions. They all deserve ALL the credit and praise lavished upon them.

Good night.

pierre - roddick has had both the two handed driving backhand (thank you jimmy) and a newer one handed slice (thank you larry) for a good bit now.

they are NOT a weakness now - you used to be able to hit to his backhand 2 or 3 times and draw the error. no more.

"sissy bag"?? Hmm..we kid around a lot about Fed's murses..they are eminently kiddable...(still love the photo shop version of the chihuaha in the bag-so to speak.)...but "sissy bag"?? Um, just..no.

After some reflection, it seems to me this match had shades of the Wimbledon 2007 final, when Federer was trying to tie Borg's record with Borg watching, and Nadal unexpectedly gave him the fight of his life. Similarly, both challengers played above and beyond what anyone except themselves thought were capable against Federer on a history making occasion. Both times, Federer was able to stave off scary scary set points or break points at critical junctures of the match and gut out a victory despite being out played for much of the match. And both left the losers absolutely gutted.

That said, another reason why this is somewhat of a let down is that for over 4 years know I have been following the TMF train steam towards tennis Valhalla, it has been the most captivating thing of being a tennis fan this past while, and now the journey is complete, he has arrived at 15, and as glad as I am that he has the Career Slam and the all-time record, it's a bit sad to see the finish line. While I'll still appreciate watching Federer play, it's going to be hard cheering all out for a player who's just collecting bonus points for his resume. Oh well, what a ride while it lasted.

I used to be the biggest Federer fan, not anymore. Today, Andy outplayed Roger, showed more heart, more courage, more passion than anybody not named Rafa. And yet, somehow, he fell short. Today, Roger is taking the trophy home, but the feeling I get is not that he won it but stole it. In my mind, Andy was the true champion today. Roger somehow took it out of his pocket.
Well done Roger, you have the record, but from now on all my respect and admiration goes to Andy.

jb-- Just for the record, Roddick was hitting the one-handed slice quite regularly well before he started working with Stefanki. He definitely hit the two-handers better today (and Friday) than I've ever seen him hit them. Just perfect down the line passing shots and even winners from the baseline.

Slick Sparrow - did you see the t-shirt that Fed wore to his presser? It said, "There is no finish line."

Likewise, Slick Sparrow.

What a ride, these six years.

really christopher? i remember him mostly with a wonky 2 hander. that shored up after working with jimmy, and i noticed the slice coming into play so successfully in oz.

either way, the both worked beautifully this tourney. nice to see them so solid. :)

Just because you love someone(Nadal in this case) so dearly, does not mean he gets into the goat conversation. Nadal's best tennis showed up when Federer was suffering from mono...too bad.
And...what happened after winning a hard court slam? lost the French and then out of Wimbledon, and no longer #1. Is he the greatest clay court player ever? I think Borg is probably still the best. Nadal's career is not over yet, so time will tell where he belongs.
It would be prudent to leave him out of these goat discussions, since it's disrespectful to the greats like Sampras, Laver, Budge, Emerson, Gonzalez...and oh, Roger!
There is something called as "consistency". I miss Nadal too, but it's just absurd to bring him into this legend discussion.

I would have to say "The Tiebreaker II" would have to go to last year's fourth setter between Federer and Nadal.

The Borg-McEnroe tiebreaker is known as The Battle of 18-16, is it not? Perhaps this match will become known as The Battle of 16-14.

I thought Roger's groundstrokes were good, not mediocre. No, they were not as stellar as we know they can be, but that doesn't mean they weren't good. Andy's groundstrokes were eye-popping because we don't usually expect them to be that good. But that speaks to our expectations. Based on their performance on court today, the two players were very evenly matched. Roger won this one on his mental strength, which just edged out Andy's today.

Should be a great hardcourt summer. I hope Andy can keep up that level of play. Looking forward to Montreal, Cincy, and the US Open.

It was Andy' DTL BHs that most impressed me..and I think caught Fed off guard.

Welcome firat amal!

Flyer, it does get ridiculous around here. Imagine any of us trying to say the perfect thing in that situation. And your offhand comment that winning 15 gs titles is incredibly hard - think about how hard it is to win one- says it all. That's why i wanted andy to win so badly.

Pete, who writes about federer ALL the time, probably more than any other player, did an analysis of when to call a player one of the GOATs. He said it was after winning 7 slams. I hate the GOAT talk because there are a other players that thrill me, or did thrill me, as much as federer. It depends on when you were born and what eras you grew up in. When someone says "greatest tennis players" I will always think Borg and Mac first. But that's because of the impact their games had on me at the time. oh who am i kidding? Feds the GOAT. I just like other players more. Borg looked fabulous today didn't he? and happy which is nice to see.

BTW - does anyone have the definitive source of the "its just tennis, nobody dies" comment? I have heard it attributed to both Becker and Guga.

And it is still true today and tonight. They will all live to play another day.

Been a long day - g-night all. (I'll check back tomorrow to see if anyone has answered the Becker/Guga quesiton.)

If we're talking about things that hurt, I actually thought Fed's offhand comment to Pete that, "It's great for you to be here. You're a member, man" cut a little deep. Andy had been desperately trying to *become* a member, after all. But that's why losing sucks. And yes, these guys are thrown in front of cameras seconds after a match and expected to say everything perfectly. They deserve a little slack.

I wish people wouldn't put everything on that second set TB. It was not the end for Andy, he came back and took it to five. Last year Fed was down the first two sets and also took it to five. There is no reason to think it wouldn't have happened again even if Roddick had taken that second set TB. They were not match points, after all, only set points.

Wow. A year ago I really did think this dream was probably lost. 15 Slams and regaining number one. I can't be sad that Roger reached those goals - that makes no sense. I can, however, feel sad about how it played out. Nadal not being able to defend, and Andy losing an absolute heartbreaker of a match.

Just really hard to be dancing around right now. I'm happy. Relieved. But it's very, very muted. Like jb, I hope Andy uses this as a springboard to his next slam title. I also hope that he gained legions of fans - he deserves it.

Tari! Great post, I agree.

"there is one unwrirren rule in tennis: You do not aim at your opponent deliberately"

garbage

Thetennisfan-Nadal beat Federer at French Open, Winbledon, Australia open in one year. By then, Federer was not suffering from mono.

"Slick Sparrow - did you see the t-shirt that Fed wore to his presser? It said, "There is no finish line.""

CL: No I didn't see it, but enough posters have referenced it already. And yes, I think it's great as well that Roger still has the fire in him, and I'd love to see him put some real daylight between himself and the other greats, but his matches will no longer carry the same "high stakes" aura anymore, which is something that will be missed. The other thing is that Rafa and Roger may play many more classics, but never one like the last again because history isn't on the line for Roger anymore, unless he's trying to stop Nadal from completing a career slam or overtaking him. (Now imagine the Fedal wars on this board if that were to happen!) And I suppose that is the only thing left on his resume, to sign of by defeating Nadal in a slam final, especially Roland Garros, but even so, it's still just not the same for me.

Bodo..

What else to say? Stop crying like a baby. Go suck on your pacifier. It should be in anytime soon.

My days as a zealous Fed kad have come to an end. Congrats Roger, I'm gonna root for the other guys going forward, particularly Andy Roddick and Juan Martin Del Potro.

IF NADAL HAD BEEN HEALTHY FEDERER WOUL NOT HAVE WON THE FRENCH AND WIMBLEDON;

STUCK UP AT 13 SLAMS;

FEDERER IS GOAT IN NADAL'S ABSCENCE

Posted by Ex-fedfan 07/05/2009 @ 10:55 PM

I used to be the biggest Federer fan, not anymore. Today, Andy outplayed Roger, showed more heart, more courage, more passion than anybody not named Rafa. And yet, somehow, he fell short. Today, Roger is taking the trophy home, but the feeling I get is not that he won it but stole it. In my mind, Andy was the true champion today. Roger somehow took it out of his pocket.
Well done Roger, you have the record, but from now on all my respect and admiration goes to Andy."

If you really feel this way, chances are you were never really a big Federer fan to start with. Roger stole nothing, he earned his fifteenth slam with blood and sweat and game just like every other slam he has won. Give your respect to Andy Roddick, Roger has plenty from other people to fill up his quota.

I think part of the letdown is actually because last month's French was the emotional highpoint. Perhaps then, he actually nosed ahead of Pete on the "false finish" line. After the French, this 15th major was taken for granted, no? If not today, sometime later. If fact, it may have been more moving if it did not happen so quickly but after the emotions of Paris had faded.

Maybe that's why everyone is so concerned with Andy. His performance could have won him his first Wimby. Roger just squeaked by.

Slick Sparrow @ 8:46 -- A little late here but I thought you were original post pretty much mirrored what I felt about the match as well. As compelling as it was as theater, it became such a serve-a-thon at the end, that it seemed more about pure tension than fantastic tennis. And yes, even as a Fed fan, I had queasy feeling in my gut and was rooting for Roddick.

I think one thing to take into account here is that Fed really admires guys his own age and moreover guys he thinks respect the game. Remember, it was Fed who got himself into a little hot water by calling out Djokovic for retiring on AndyR at the AO this past year, a victory that at the time would have been Roddick's biggest in a couple of years. Now whether what he implied about Djokovic was fair or not is an open question, but I think because it happened against Roddick it peeved Fed a little more than say if it happened against a younger player. I have no way of knowing this, but I almost think if Fed had to choose a player to lose a Slam final to it would be Roddick. And I actually would have felt this even before today's gut-wrenching match.

The on-court/address the crowd interviews I'm not a big fan of. They only seem to work when one player is totally outclassed, or even better, just happy to have reached the final. (Think Soderling at this year's FO.) Otherwise, I think it's asking a bit much of these guys.

But I thought Fed said all the right things in his interview with J-Mac afterward. It was obvious he had mixed feelings about the victory, not only because of what Roddick's effort, but Roddick's career as a whole. My hope is that Andy will, as the days pass, look back on the tournament in a positive light. I'll say this, I won't soon forget his victory over Murray. Although four sets, in many ways I thought it was a superior match to the final. Here's hoping he can somehow win Wimby next year.

Good call, Cosi.

'Night, TW. :)

I guess those Fed fans who feel all sad and muted and noncelebratory would have been much happier to see Roddick win. Then they'd be celebrating?

Nah, Syd. I probably would be feeling much the same. I'm an Andy Roddick fan and have been for quite a while. It was just ghastly to look at that poor guy's face when this was over. Truly.

Now I'm off. :)

Some of you folks are hilarious...A body serve is dirty? Have you NEVER played tennis? And regarding Fed's reactions (or lack thereof) at the end...The guy just played 4 1/2 hours of mind numbingly intense tennis, including a 75 minute fifth set, and then he's gotta immediately give interviews in his FOURTH language. So cut the dude some slack.

And my GOAT pick - Fed...He is (in his generation) 1st on HC, 1st on Grass, 2nd on Clay. An unimpeachable record, now winning a GS on all surfaces. I guess Borg might be my number 2 - he was (for his gen.) 1st on Grass, 1st on Clay, 2nd or 3rd on HC (so tantalizingly close at the USO)... Rod the Rocket (my #3) was indeed amazing, but consider this fact hardly ever noted: 3 of the 4 majors he played were on grass, which greatly simplified matters...

Tari,

didn't know you were a Roddick fan...well, he played a great tournament. Sorry.

Syd, many Fed fans are still sorting out their emotions. Somehow this victory is not as sweet as expected. But I think it is the French that has cast a long shadow, plus of course Andy's fate. On the other hand, could anyone have wished another heartbreak marathon on Roger after last year's final?

well, if somebody thinks Andy Roddick SHOULD have won the second set, I think maybe Roger SHOULD have won the first set, he had ALL THOSE BREAK POINTS on Andy's serve, and was serving lights out himself until he blew those chances. Roger very well could have and maybe SHOULD have won that first set.. right?

ha there u go Syd!

now we just get to watch a living Legend play tennis without the god awful pressure, i for one am loking forwar to that, this last month has been a little over the top in the frazzle department...

time for some fun!

" On the other hand, could anyone have wished another heartbreak marathon on Roger after last year's final?"

Well, they could, but then they wouldn't be Federer fans. :)

Frankly, I am ecstatic and over the moon.

well syd, this fed fan would be celebrating. I'd be sad for fed to lose the opportunity, but definately would be incredibly happy for roddick. and that would by far overshadow the fed loss for me.

much as my sadness for andy is overshadowing fed's win.

some fed fans have no angst, that's fine, he won a hailish tough match tough match today. but some of us do have definate mixed feelings. and that's fine too.

And of course, all the Fed fans know what a biting loss in a marathon feels like. Even Fed was muted.

Fact: Nadal wasn't able to step up and play a full year of tennis at the same level. It's unfortunate for tennis that there's so much talent, but not much consistency.
As for some of his fans, "sour grapes" syndrome has kicked in, and it's understandable.
Anyways, life goes on.

where is piyush when you really need his expert opinion as to what fed has to do next to be GOAT!
Its like a charm, once piyush says anything, fed listens to him and executes it at the next GS, so all hail piyush, the virtual coash we have suspected that fed had all along ! :)

good point thebigapple. this is the kind of match where i hate to see a winner / not winner.

ok - now i really need to get some sleep.

'nite all!

Syd -- I actually was pulling for Roddick. In fact, on another thread late last night I said I hoped either Roddick would win or he woud get dusted in straights. A crushing five-setter for the guy would be too much to take.

But I also count myself as Fed fan who is not a KAD. Make of it what you will.

jb;

it's fine and perfectly legal to have mixed feelings. But I wouldn't call those that do fans of Federer, is all I'm sayin'.

I don't care if Federer beat the Pope and Mother Teresa, I'm celebrating his Historic Win. And after last year? And people have mixed feelings? Sorry, not Feddy Fans.

wait, from the comments here it seems like fed has past his expiration date. i don't get it. he's playing until 2012 at least. more marvelousness....i guess most everyone roots for the underdog and it's not just at the french open.

yeh plyush! your sage Fed posts are like self fulfilling prophecies, keep em up for the US Open! youve cursed Djoker and Nadal and Murray big time, too, with your proclamations...

i wonder what Mrs. Djoker is thinking right now ... hope she believes in life after death

*sneaks back in* Ok, I guess I'm not a Fed fan. Did you hear that, Pete? ;-)

Congrats, Syd!

remember Roddick is only 26, he's not exactly dead...he will get a Slam, this tourney was a total reinvention for him, and gives him at least a year or more of aura as a major contender...

amazing now that there are 5 men with totally realistic shots at Slam titles...

where's Fed's WM badge????

Thetennisfan-Sour grapes syndrome? In what posts? You are the one who is not fair to Nadal.

tim, he's got 15 WM badges and counting. he doesn't need one from pete.

Thanks Tari,

Fed fans have had a tough, well, more than a year now; Madrid and forward, we've finally had something to celebrate and feel good about.

I thought that roger was on his way out according to this author? I thought that roger was in his twilight and on his way down hill according to this author?

What happened to that whole piece he wrote about a dwindling champion?

I do believe i am no longer a fan of these authors on tennis.com

mcakron@11:25. Totally agree with you, I also don't think Roger was trying to be disrespectful at all towards Andy Roddick, I actually think he was genuinely trying to be empathetic and understanding. It's just that sometimes we have good intentions but it ends up causing more harm, and I think that's what Roger's "empathy" towards Roddick during the on-court interviews were like. His remarks would probably have been received better in the locker room afterwards, or at a later date. Something that hasn't really been discussed is the fact that is actually must be rather awkward for Federer being around Andy, you know, trying to be nice but can't really be close because he just keeps beating up on him on court.

Syd: "I guess those Fed fans who feel all sad and muted and noncelebratory would have been much happier to see Roddick win. Then they'd be celebrating?"

Syd, I don't think the muted fed fans are sad to see Federer win and Roddick lose. I think we're all happy (more relieved?) that he won. I think it has more to do with the emotional dynamic of the match. After all, as someone noted earlier, Federer would have probably won his 15th at some point down the road. For Roddick, he'd been playing the most inspirational tennis of his life and had a chance to basically redefine his entire career and finally get one on his lifetime nemesis. It'd be like Federer beating Nadal at Roland Garros while Nadal was trying to beat Borg's record or something (could have happened this year). Imagine if that happened and Federer lost 16-14 in the fifth...yeah, I'll let the horror of that scenario sit for my fellow fed fans for a while, so we can get a taste of Roddick's bitterness and sense of opportunity wasted.

Also, getting to Slam #15 by squeezing by 16-14 in the fifth off a set of missed first serves while probably winning a second set you should have lost; all to a guy that you've basically owned your entire career -- doesn't really spell "emphatic case for GOAThood" does it? I hope I'm not being a sore winner but it's really hard to get excited over all that, maybe all those years of TMF greatness have spoiled me, but that's how I feel.

Yes indeed Pete that t/breaker can instantly back in mind and I did post that dueing that 5th set

Gee Borg v Mac the T/breaker to end all T/breakers that one.

Boy this match was like being on a Roller Coaster in a Fun Park

Except Roddick didnt enjoy the ride at all.

Roddick I shed tears for you in the end.

You can hold you head high indeed.

Yeah so close but so far away.

it sometimes seems Roger has started testing the physical endurance of his opponents by playing loosely , and losing sets to get the matches to 5 setters .During his recent press interview in German he joked about a "sweating" Andy Roddick .The Wimbledon win for Roger was ultimately due to Andy's exhaustion at the end of the 5th set . Haas had given a fright to Roger during the French open by winning the first two sets . So Roger did not risk playing loosely against him in the early sets at Wimbledon . But against Roddick perhaps he felt he could only secure victory by extending the match to 5 sets .

You know, all this talk about "Roddick deserved this more, Fed stole it from him." , "Justice wasn't served today" ....

Stop and think for a minute. Are these statements based on statistical facts, or based on our perception of the expected levels of the two players? We expected Federer to hand down a beating, expected him to make those passing shots, and when he didn't, he played below our expectations. Nobody expected Roddick to take it to Fed and play him this close, to nail those DTL backhands time and again. When he did, he surpassed our expectations. And because of our own expectations of the two players, it propagates the myth that Roddick had actually outplayed Federer comprehensively, and yet, somehow, Federer "stole" the match from him.

Check the stats. Who had more break point opportunities? Federer had 7, Roddick had 5. The difference was that Federer flubbed his chances that would have prevented this match from getting this close. Had he not made a ton of unforced errors at the wrong time, he could have won the break in the first set, could have also won the third set. It could have been a straight sets romp ... a close 3 sets, but still a clear victory. Instead, with the chances he got, Roddick was more opportunistic in converting them, converting the break points he got in the first and fourth set on the Federer serve. The stats show that Fed had more winners, only 4 more unforced errors, 23 more aces, and a higher percentage of points won on serve and in receiving games. How then, can it be stated, that Roddick was the "more deserving winner" and that Federer "stole" a match that he had no business winning? Because we are judging their performances based on our own expectations of how each should have played the match. Let go of that bias, and the stats show that Federer had just as much right to win the match as Roddick did, and ultimately, he withstood the pressure in the crunch just that bit longer than his opponent, and therefore walked away with the trophy !

okay, it's my bedtime. But, if you look at the stats, Mackron, they speak louder than the scoreline. That is the nature of sudden death. 2 pts in the fifth. It is btw the way Nadal won over Federer last year.

so, I don't think what you're saying about Roger could have/should have won his 15th in some different style or different place, against a different opponent has any validity whatsoever.

anyhow, everyone's free to think or believe what they want.

Nice post, Pete. Roddick had the best assessment of this match in his presser. Must have been tough to field those questions right after a heart-breaker.

"I'm sad to say that I felt that some of Sampras' comments today were a bit knife twisting to Andy and not too sensitive. I recall that he was almost always better seen than heard during his career."

Really, Jenn?

All this for saying --
"It looked to me like Andy just changed his mind," Pete told me later. "That was a huge moment."

sigh. you can't please everyone.

er, maybe that was intended for Slick Sparrow. not sure now. adios.

everyone agrees hawkeye was malfunctioning, who's to say federer didn't actually break roddick in the 1st set when they were tied at 5 all?

and roddick made a terrible decision in the 2nd set tie break. he lost it. don't feel bad for him. he stuck it out. he put it behind him and the match went on in a most amazing fashion. i felt for roddick too. but he lost it and it was on his racket. he assumed what no great player should that a ball was going out...

thetruth

Nothing personal, just saw a post about nadal being the goat...kinda strange that someone would bring that up. Anyways, regardless of anyone's opinion here, there are great players of all time, and then there are some with potential to join that group. Nadal is in the 2nd category.

So Fed fans aren't true Fed fans if they feel badly for Andy? Wow.

I thought it was pretty classy of Tari, jb, Tim, and many, many others who have expressed those feelings all day.

Syd -- no problem. Actually, I wasn't the one saying he could have won his 15th elswehere against a different opponent. That, I believe, was Slick Sparrow. I was just saying, for once, I was rooting for Fed's opponent. But at the same time I'm happy for Fed and glad he broke the record. In many ways, it was a millstone and I'm glad it's been lifted. Just felt for Roddick is all.

narinder@11:51 PM says: "it sometimes seems Roger has started testing the physical endurance of his opponents by playing loosely , and losing sets to get the matches to 5 setters . .....
But against Roddick perhaps he felt he could only secure victory by extending the match to 5 sets ."

Ok, this is the funniest post I've read today. He's deliberately losing sets and therefore the chance to win the match in 3 or 4 sets, so that he can exhaust his opponent in a 5th set and win that way, because he has no confidence that he can win in 3 or 4 sets? Huh ???

HAS ANYONE GIVEN A THOUGHT TO THE FACT THAT FED HELD 15 games in the fifth and good amount of them were 15s and Love holds?

Watch him in USO or AO ...he doesn't have any pressure anymore. Same Andy would be fodder. No offense to him and all...but I saw Fed checking a whole lot of shots to be in play instead of going for it.

15 consecutive service holds. And then to break.
This guy is something.

Guys...this is one of 15 GS wins...and the next few are going to be different...some straights, some with bagels...no big deal.

FIFTEEN.
15.
In six years.
In 6 Years.

15 in 6 years.
Fifteen in Six years.

Now, take a sip and think about it

Sorry Tony Snedker, it's already done and dusted
Roger is the GOAT
it's not his fault nadal plays recklessly and gets injured.

I also said when Roger won the French the big monkey came off his back.

He can play freely now hey whats he got to prove

Well he has just won another Wimby title,broke Petes recod,reclaimed the no 1 postion and also did the Channel thing like Borg and Rafa before him.

Hey not bad for someone who during the early part of the season seemed done and dusted.

Never underestimate Champions,they have a habit of making you eat Humble Pie.

well Crazy ....its like this....if Roger had faught too hard to win the 4th set (and the match) he feared Andy would hit back harder and improve his playing level . By losing the 4th set tamely , he lulled Andy into complacency so that when the time came for Andy to up his level of play in the 5th set , he was too exhausted to do so.

And really, this nitpicking on everything Federer said being wrong and inconsiderate of Andy ... C'mon, please ! He said he felt for Andy having lost some rough finals himself recently - "Federer was sticking it to Andy ... he had 5 and Andy hasn't won one !" ! Then he said to Pete "You're a member, man ! We like to see you around." - "Federer should have been more considerate of Andy ... he's trying to be a member too, you know !"

What the heck was Fed supposed to say, exactly? At least he didn't say "I played fantastic, hit fantastic shots throughout the tournament" like he did at the USO '06 final ceremony or "As usual, I always play my best in the final. I don't know how I do it." at the USO 05 final ceremony. Ah, the days of cocky TMF !

Now we have a humble champion who's been struggling for the last year and a half, fallen off his invincible perch at the top, who struggles to win, and who empathizes with his opponent, knowing exactly how gutted he must feel, and people still criticize him. Unbelievable !

Seriously now. All you people talking about Roger winning the calendar grand slam and tennis idiots. NEED YOU BE REMINDED, that in winning both the French and Wimbledon, Roger did NOT have to face the two guys who have owned him over the past many months. Is there any doubt that Roger would NEVER have defeated a healthy Nadal at the french (or Madrid for that matter)? NO!!!!! Furthermore, it's unlikely that Federer beats a healthy Nadal at Wimbledon either. Did folks see how his ground strokes deserted him today? And recall, Nadal has the best (or second best) return stats on the tour (rivaled only by who??? Murray!!!!). That said, if, sadly, Rafa is ultimately unable to return to his full strength, then who knows how many majors the Fed can continue to rack up against a relatively middling field of non-competition. I know you Fed lovers like to ignore it, but the guy just doesn't have competition from his contemporaries (of which Nadal and Murray are not). Did you all see how Laver answered the question re the best ever? He said, he'd have to put Roachey and Newcomb in there too. Why? Cause these were other great players in his era. Whether or not that's true about them, it's certainly true about Edberg, Becker, Agassi, Courier, etc., Sampras' contemporaries. So, as long as the Fed's GSs continue to come at the cost to the host of scrubs who are his contemporaries (all due respect to Andy for finally finding a backhand and gaining more mobility but this has been done about five years too late), he'll NEVER EVER be the GOAT. It's that simple.

Crazy ...if the perch had been "invincible" Roger would not have fallen from it

Crosscourt101-So why is Federer the GOAT when his biggest rival beats him on three different surfaces at grandslam finals in a year?

narinder: "well Crazy ....its like this....if Roger had faught too hard to win the 4th set (and the match) he feared Andy would hit back harder and improve his playing level . By losing the 4th set tamely , he lulled Andy into complacency so that when the time came for Andy to up his level of play in the 5th set , he was too exhausted to do so."

Again, HUH? If Roger had won the fourth set, he would have won the match, and it would have been over. Are you saying he didn't want to fight hard for the 4th set for fear that he would still lose it, so he deliberately tanked? Considering that Federer hadn't broken Roddick even once, and Roddick had broken Federer twice, who had the better shot in a 5th set with no tie-breaks? Your theory doesn't hold water. Federer was just having trouble with the consistency of his groundstrokes, and with his return game. Period. Had he not missed so many passing shots, he would have converted those chances and half-chances, and would have won in straight sets ... tight straight sets, but straight sets nevertheless.

because even GOATS dont win every match of their lives, they dont even win all of the majors they play, Sampras was on a two year losing streak before he won his last one...

is that enough explanation for you?

and where was the biggest rival at RG? one great year does not the GOAT make..you need 4 or 5 great years for that... enough said

Crazy-for-Rog -- I missed those posts, but if you're referencing what Slick Sparrow and I were batting around, neither of us was criticizing what Fed said. Hardly. In fact, as Slick Sparrow pointed out probably nothing Fed could have said in that interview with Sue Barker would have made Andy feel better, and I thought Fed's interview with J-Mac exhibited nothing but class.

My only point was that I'm not a fan of these on-court/address the entire crowd things anyway. Nothing against Fed or Roddick on that front. Just the concept of the things in general.

Borg lost to McEnroe in 3 Slam finals, but very very few put McEnroe ahead of Borg in the list of champions...why?? Slam titles...longevity, consistency, etc.

Borg 11
McEnroe 7

this is not difficult stuff...

Geelis........have some mercy on tennis players less than # 5 ranking........they are definately not "scrubs".And Murray is not all that hot.....he put up a poor show in paris and did not do well at wimbledon either (despite all the crowd support . As for Nadal he had to physically wear down his body to win against Federer , which he will never be able to repeat again

Thinking about Federer's groundstrokes today, it occurs to me that he never really got into a rhythm with his baseline game at any point in this tournament. Consider the last 3 opponents he faced before coming into the final - Soderling, Karlovic, Haas. All big servers, very few extended baseline rallies. Little to no rhythm ! Add to that the fact that Fed came into Wimbledon without playing any tune-up event on grass.

Roddick, OTOH, had played Queen's, and his opponents gave him plenty of rhythm from the baseline, including Hewitt and Murray.

It's clear that Fed has work to do to regain his prowess with hitting winners off both flanks, and making those passing shots that he had been missing so frequently here.

I hope this Federer the "GOAT" will stop now. It is getting to be "FEDERER THE GLOAT"!!!!! ENOUGH! All The Champion's of the Past deserve better then this. They are all "GREAT" tennis champions. Over the top and way too much "GLOATING" comming from the Federer camp! Show some respect to the other champions.

Tim-No.I'm not convinced. I'm not talking about grandslam performances. I'm talking about Nadal vs Federer. Who is better and why. Nadal leads Federer 13:7.

Tim-No.I'm not convinced. I'm not talking about grandslam performances. I'm talking about Nadal vs Federer. Who is better and why. Nadal leads Federer 13:7.

cant believe roddick has to play Davis Cup in five days on clay...

he must be one unhappy boy tonight...

mcakron@12:19 : no, my post was not directed at you or anyone in particular. It was just based on some of the comments I was reading, and I didn't go back to see which poster(s) made those comments.

curious...

Federer 15, Nadal 6 ...

this is not complicated...

Crazy....... what I said was if Roger had faught too hard (to try) to win the 4th set , Andy would have upped his level and won the 4th set immediately and gone on to win the 5th too .

I think Nadal's knee issue is a bigger thing than just a month-of-rest thing. I could be wrong, but we'll see at the US Open, which is a hard surface.
Federer will be 28 and Nadal would be entering his prime years, so it'll be interesting. I don't think it's Federer vs Nadal anymore, we've got Murray, Djoko and...Roddick now.
To be great, consistency is the ingredient, if not the most important.

At the end of the day Andy lost cause of exhaustion and Fed said he(Fed) was good for another hour

that last post of mine was addressed to Crazy

Pete,
Watched the match from in the bay area. My view is Anyd played the better tennis and should have won. He served great (so did Fed),returned and defended better than ever in his life, his so called stiff back hand was electric, his so called slow movement was excellent, he matched Federer at the net with some lovely soft pick ups at the net and great volleys as well. So why did he lose? I think the ones that win "dwell in the moment" Andy in the fifth set was serving second so I think instead of staying in the present moment his mind wandered a bit and that is why he lost. The other reason I think the other reason was half the court was in shade and half of it was sunny. I think Andy somehow did not adjust well to this and almost completed whiffed one low forehand and had two mishits on the forehand side in the final game, one of it off a Federer mishit backhand return of serve that landed short on the forehand side.
Ramana

M%M, talk to the media, NBC, etc. not Fed fans, every Slam champion is asked about the GOAT, what do you expect from them, stony silence?

Epic match today-I'm glad I witnessed it. Two fine champions.

Tim-No.You didn't read my post. Your post is about grandslam performances. Nadal leads Federer 13:7.

All you guys can keep on with how Fed has to beat the likes of Nadal, djoko, and Murray to be considered the greatist, but im thinking in 10 years no one is going to look at that way, because people will look back at the 15 to 19 slam collection and the poetry-in-motion sweetness of feds game and think he was the greatist, or at least on a very short list of greats. Murray who...Djoko who, oh the Jim Currier's of their generation, not bad, but not total greatness. The sky is the limit for Nadal, but i doubt he will eclipse fed in total career achievments.