Pete (one of you, especially you, you know who I am talking about)

Here I was, winding down from Clay down to RG over to Wimby sort of purging a bit of active live tennis, only to get ready for USO series, minding my own beeswax...and look what you have done! You proud you! Just look what you have done.

One thing: Death, taxes, Global Warming and Goatederaf (belongs to a semi mutated, self-selected Giraffe phylum and no, it doesn't resemble that humble herbivore that supply mutton)...TWibe will never get tired of this!

If having a losing record to Nadal eliminates you from being the GOAT I wonder what the penalty is for losing to Jaime Yzaga in an early round of a slam during your prime. Or Petr Korda. Or Gilbert Schaller. Or Ramon Delgado.

Sure the Nadal Head to Head is a blemish on Federer's record, no matter how you splice the clay vs. other surfaces thing. However, there is no potential GOAT that doesn't have some sort of major blemish, and elevating only Federer's H-H against Nadal to some sort of definitive disqualifier seems ridiculous. Especially when there are more obvious ones like that pesky French Open finalist requirement...

Also.. (anti-Sampras KAD warning)... does he hate tennis or have the worst memory in history? I've heard him get completely confused as to what years he won what slams in the past, and now he doesn't even know how many slams his friend Safin won? 2 is a pretty easy number to remember!

Oh noes, msf might call me a jackass!

Mrs. Santa - but who did you hate MOST!!!!????!! You must be new here.

Yes, I am weak and came back but only because I knew Grant would make an appearance. Mrs. Santa is just an extra bit of salty frosting.

Ya know, when I first read the title of this thread I thought it was a command to a dog named Warrior. "Sit Ubuu., sit."

"Soderling won that match at the anonymous GS because he was playing an injured player."
Lynne, I'm a RafaKAD, and yet, I'll have to respectfully disgree with the above statement. General Sod had a good game plan and stuck to it. He simply played better. Rafa is too classy to use his injury as an excuse, maybe us fans should follow suit.
I'm not denying that Rafa's knees affected his performance, but it is unfair to Sod to use Rafa's injury as the sole excuse for the result.

Well, I guess that's not much fun when I supply the answer in the same post. The heat in California is killing me. Can we just turn it off? (An homage to Fed & Hawkeye.)

Nah, BlueDog. Pete S = Beethoven, in his Heroic period. :)

"ladyjulia, so R U saying I should be charged for something I didn't request because I somehow benefit from it? How socialist!"

NP : On the contrary, it's more like second-hand smoking, I'd imagine. Hardly anything to benefit from... ;-)

imjimmy, agree with you on Roddick and Hewitt, but think you underrate Safin a little. Except for 2003 Marat's records from '00-'05 were pretty solid, and he played some great tennis along the way. But as you know he faded away after the '05 AO, so his prime didn't last long enough to synchronize with Fed's for more than a year or two. Shame.

Emma,

Well, I respect your point of view, but as a longtime Rafa fan, I have to tell you from the little I saw, that it was my opinion that he wasn't able to run very well, the footwork wasn't there and Ithought that he was injured.

I am not making excuses and it turned out that he was actually injured.

ooh...now I HAVE to hang around for the MSF/Grant smack down. It DOES make such a nice change from the Fedal wars.

Popcorn anyone?

Timeline:
Rafa will retires eventually.
Fed will still have a full head of hair.
And so he will remain as the Hair God.
Forever.
And Pete S's gray unibrows will resemble Andy Rooney's.
Rafa will play doubles with Soderling in the senior circuit.
And Fed will partner with FGonzalez. Both will run around each other to hit forehands. Their H2H against all seniors will be 1528:0
And oh, yes, Rafa will change to boxers.
And everything will be fine.

PS - my money is on the Northern Lights.

No, no no! Laver would be Beethoven. Different era, and all. Pete would have to be the Kink's methinks. Beach Boys? Zeppelin? You choose.

Lynne, Rafa was tired, exhausted, injured, off his meds, and probably upset about his hairline or water bottle adjustment that day, so of course he lost!

in fact, unless he's 100 percent fit, ready, perky, in ideal health and humming on all cylinders, its only fair they postpone his match, lets petition the ATP!

the guy has never lost a match unless his body was falling apart, which I guess happens about 8-10 times a year

Triple F - ROFL... I can just see Fed and Gonzo running INTO each other as they strive to avoid BHs.

But I do think, for his fans' sake, Rafa should go 'commando' on the senior circuit.

yes it is better to lose to rafa in the finals than some of the tomato cans sampras lost to early.

Tim: we just know you're trying to get a rise out of someone when you make an absurd statement such as "the rest of his career and results is rather non existent":)

The respective career-winning percentages of the two men are 82.2%, and 80.9%

And it's the Mallorcan whose percentage is higher. However, both are up there with the very best that the game has to offer, which is what mostly matters. The Mallorcan's percentage overtook the Swiss' percentage in the past couple of years. But hey, that could change again. The only point I'm trying t make is that both guys have established a significant degree of dominance over the rest of the field - and those numbers are certainly drawn from big enough samples to be statistically significant, though not career-definitive, as both careers are still works-in-progress.

I don't think either player has anything much not to be proud of in his career to date, and I have really have had it with the idea that to build up any great player (take your pick) it's necessary to over-aggrandise him by tearing down someone else's accomplishments.

Lynne - right on!! Just like Fed was devastated for all of 2008 by mono. Sick/couldn't train/tired, not moving well. Really...let's just toss out all Fed results from that year - except the US Open of course. An exception that proved the rule.

CL the Beatles are the pillar that holds the noxious baby boomer edifice afloat and the Rolling Stones produced "Brown Sugar". I believe they are both more evil than NBC. The GOAT debaters should adopt this approach as well. I can provide additional haterade for those who lack sufficient quantities.

the problem with the GOAT arguments it that's it's such of a heck of beyond the wall subjective topic..(of ALL TIME??) that on one level it can't even really be discussed properly.

If you are the champ of ALL TIME...how can you have a losing record, including Majors , to your prime rival? If Roger wins a few more Majors it could muffle sume rumbling, but if he continues to lose to Rafa in future Majors it's hard to call
Roger the greatest of ALL TIME.

meaning, Ros, he's never beaten anyone else in a Slam, so his whole big headline career is about beating Fed, no?

Fed has beaten Safin, Roddick, nadal, Baggie, hewitt, etc etc in Slam finals...

Rafa has beaten Federer, and ...who was that guy in the french?

thats my point... his whole reputation is about Federer, stopping his domination, etc.

Triple F. erm, Giraffes do not have their own phylum, neither do sheep; they are in the same phyla. :) same as ours: Chordata, but I catch your drift.

Errands to run.

Hasta luego.

lol cout Roger would win 20 majors and youd be harping about head to heads...

he can sit on the couch and eat Doritos and drink Coors Light and never hit a ball from here, he has nothign to prove to you or anyone else...

VC, one difference: laughs = good for your health, 2nd-hand smoke = not so much.

CL: Rafa is allowed to go 'commando' only if he chooses to wear Edberg shorts and Fed's Sergeant Pepper Military Jacket. When Rafa enters with the Jacket on, everyone would be like, is it there or is it not? And then the Jacket would come off and everyone would be like, why is he not pulling it, oh why!
Imagine that.

CL: Don't think I made any mention of TMF, did I?

Tim,

If Federer did not exist, rest assured Rafa would have reigned No. 1 for atleast 3 consecutive years (basing it on the fact that he was ranked 2).

Rafa, himself, sometime in 2007 said that in a press conference. He didn't say he would have been ranked 1 for 3 years, but said that he would have already been No. 1 if it wasn't for Roger since he had accumulated enough points compared to other No. 1s who were not Roger.

BlueDog, Laver = Bach. FYI I place Bach and Mozart above Beethoven, though I find most of Wolfgang's oeuvre too polite for my taste.

"one difference: laughs = good for your health, 2nd-hand smoke = not so much."

NP : Ok, then. How about drivers honking outside your window? :-)

Well ... seeing as this thread has devolved into dueling regurgitation (AKA Fedal Wars), I'll leave my final contribution as ...

Here's to hoping Rafa comes back 100%, Fed maintains his health and clear head, and we get to enjoy some great Tennis. ;)

by the way cout, to answer your question, its possible because youre up against the best clay courter in history, and you ALWAYS get to the finals, because youre so darn good on clay, just not quite THAT good .. so Fed is not the GOAT because his main rival is extra GREAT on one surface..

by the way he beat the guy who beat the clay GOAT in the French Open final, in straight sets :) that should count for somethin!

Tim, dear Tim

You make the 'sit on the couch and eat Doritos and drink Coors Light' sound like it's a bad thing. Is it?

Your earlier point is a defining one. Rafa was made to, tuned to, and charged with to beat Federer to get his #1. He had to wait #158 weeks or so, but he did in the end. He honed his game to Roger's. He doesn't know what to do next. Let's see what he brings against all who are watching the RG round-16 tape of his studiously. Toni am sure is thinking hard as we speak.

VC, laughs = good for your health, drivers honking = not so much. C'mon, get your SAT mojo working!

"No, no no! Laver would be Beethoven. Different era, and all. Pete would have to be the Kink's methinks. Beach Boys? Zeppelin? You choose."

Safin is the Beach Boys - capable of greatness, marred by headcaseishness.

Rafa is Zeppelin - his topspin is the Hammer of the Gods.

Borg, not Fed, is the Beatles - not quite as good 'under the lights' (the Beatles weren't considered a great live band), left in his prime.

NP...I can imagine how you would rub your hands in glee everytime a Rafa KAD or Fed KAD falls into the trap...

However, its not all smooth sailing for you, is it? Esp. *cough* now after Wimby.

NP : Oh, ok. Laugh away! Was just trying to draw a bad analogy to the direction of this thread. :-)

How about if we move on to the GMOAT debate? That's "greatest mullet of all time", for those not in the know. If I'm not mistaken, I think we can reach consensus on this one.

but Julia, beating Federer is what made Rafa grow in stature, thats my point...if Fed lost early (which he never does of course) and Rafa beat some other guys, i wonder how the GOAT conversation would be, given that Fed would have the same # of Slams, just fewer losses to Rafa...

seems like hes punished, he should just lose a few RD16 matches, then for sure he'd be the GOAT!

if Rafa beat Marian Puerta, David Ferrer, David Nalbandian and Verdasco in his four French Open finals, how would this GOAT conversation be going today??

think about it...

What does KAD stand for?

Am I reading this right. Tim's arguing that the only reason Rafa has clout is his ability to beat Federer in slams?

And this is a negative how? :)

You nailed it, ladyjulia. What can I say, I love TW.

VC, I say it's not me who should be charged, but the TWibe. For endorphin overdose.

Lock, good one.

Anyway I'm off. Later, folks.

Tim,

I agree that H2H may have been better if Fed had not reached the finals of the FO so many danged times..or the clay MS finals for that matter.

But, Fed had has his chances to improve that H2H...he's lost to Rafa in Dubai, Miami, Wimby, AO final. If he would have won those 4, the H2H would have been 9-11 instead of 13-7. Nobody would have brought up the 9-2 clay then, would they?

I don't agree on a GOAT...since the universe has not ended (its ALL TIME), the sun still has 4.5 billion years left...who knows what will happen. I can argue for the greatest of his generation...in which the Rafa H2H really causes damage.

But not all is over, Roger can still beat Rafa if he keeps his head.

I really do wish the word "GOAT" would become spam. What if we just stopped talking about it, cold turkey, right now?

Ahhhhhhh. What a wonderful world it would be.

Those are fair choices Grant (I thought you might be drawn in :)

Some other thoughts:

KC and the Sunshine Band= Verdasco
The Trogs= Stepanek
AC/DC= Dr. Ivo

I love it when Rosangel brings out the stats

Yes they cant make excuses.

"Am I reading this right. Tim's arguing that the only reason Rafa has clout is his ability to beat Federer in slams?"

Yeah, not sure where this one's going. I can understand the argument that if Fed had made fewer clay finals he'd be getting less hassle about a certain head-to-head despite having actually done worse, but not the one that six-time slam winners only get clout from beating Federer.

Sherlock Welcome!

Better late than never I suppose.

Tim,
Roger did not win 3 Slams in consecutive years. He did this in 2004,2006, and 2007. In 2005, Marat Safin defeated him in that semifinal match at the Australian Open(9-7 5th). Also, Rafael defeated Roger in the semifinals before defeating Puerta to win his first Slam. One negative on Rafael is injuries. He missed the French Open in 2004, Australian Open in 2006, and Wimbledon 2009. in 2005, Rafael won double digit titles and when he had to miss the 2006 AO, most of the media said that Rafael would have won it because Rebound Ace was tailored to his game.

"AC/DC= Dr. Ivo"

I dunno, I'd say that AC/DC has made a better career out of doing the same thing over and over.

Grant Please get with it

Dr Ivo is a Hip Hop fan.

I have a question to the ones that still insist Soderling played great and Nadal didn't play so good. Then when did Nadal get the injury? after finish that match? or between RG and Wimbledon? or when?
It's so obvious that Nadal got the knees injury before Madrid

Life, not GOAT debate, is not fair.
2 of the Beatles are dead. And Keith Richards is a grand father. Go figure.
Fed is Beatles and Jimi Hendrix and Bob Dylan combined.
Lendl is Grateful Dead.
Becker is Credence Clearwater Revival
Edberg is The Who.
Murray is Cure.
Wilander is Doors.
Nole is Millie Vanillie.

PS: Rafa will be 70s onwards Stones.

""AC/DC= Dr. Ivo"

I dunno, I'd say that AC/DC has made a better career out of doing the same thing over and over."

So what are you thinking for the Doc? Nine Inch Nails?

Well, for all the talk of weak eras, H2Hs and such, Federer has added 11 Slams (atleast one of each type) to his tally since Nadal won his first. Nadal has added 5 more, and Djokovic picked up the one that was going spare. I'd take any negative H2H in exchange for that haul.

Grant @ 8:29, agreed. On both counts.

"I'd say that AC/DC has made a better career out of doing the same thing over and over."

LOL. :)

Hi, AM. :)

Sadly, this was a bit of a drive-by. Time to head for home. See y'all later.

Carol I feel Rafa knees started to go in that tournament in Rotterdam.He should have not play there so soo after the AO.

If you remember he had injury after that tournament.

"So what are you thinking for the Doc? Nine Inch Nails?"

No, AC/DC fits. They both do one thing, and do it well.

I'm not sure who'd be NiN. I will however suggest JMac as The Clash, if only as a description of his run-ins with chair umps.

Posted by L.Rubin 07/14/2009 @ 6:42 PM

"We also have to figure in that Rafa is several years younger than Roger and started to peak when Roger had already just about done everything in tennis"

No, Cosi. TMF was 24 when Rafa started to peak. One would think, after reading your post, that Fed was applying for AARP membership in the spring of 2005. In addition, Roger, in said 2005, was at the beginning stages of a blitzkrieg that would last until 2008. The fact that the coltish Rafa managed to give him headaches during that three-year tear is to the Mallorcan's unending credit.

--Liron

Wow, you have Nadal peaking at age 19? I think you do a disservice to Nadal, I think Nadal started to peak from 2008 to early 2009... when Roger was 26-27 and quite accomplished, not freaking 24... Sheesh, I guess you haven't noticed how much BETTER of a player Nadal is lately than he was at age 19-20

Edberg = the Who...no!!!!!!!!! I dunno 'who' Edberg is, but it is not 'the Who.' nor is it ABBA. Stefan hears a who, maybe.

Mrs. Santa - forget Brown Sugar...the Stones gave us Mick's lips, for which they, and the lips, should be drawn and quartered which, in the case of the lips, would make enough to feed an army of pigs for 8.5 years. ***shudder***

Sherlock - I have had several too many glasses of wine, so I have no idea what you actually said, but whatever it is, you are RIGHT, now and forever more.

Well, if we are talking about doing the same thing over and over, isn't that Mr. Federer?

Posted by Rosangel 07/14/2009 @ 6:59 PM

Well, let's see about that H2H:

2:1 on grass isn't statistically significant - far too small a sample."

Well YEAH it's a small stat, the reason being there are hardly
any grass tournaments, the other extreme surface at the opposite end of the spectrum than the extreme surface of clay. So Roger didn't have the opportunity to play Nadal on his very best surface like Nadal had the opportunity to play Roger so very often on clay. As I said, all the elements of the rivalry so far have been in Nadal's favor, from surfaces played, to the SLOWING DOWN of grass and hardcourts which favor Nadal, to the ticking of the clock and timing of peaks and valleys for players. Head to head, Pfffttt.

Laver- Beethoven??????? Don't be silly. Laver is Sibelius. Maybe Dvorak. But NOT Beethoven.

I'd say Lendl was James Taylor, because they both had a lot of success at the time despite boring people and aren't really thought about much anymore, but James Taylor was probably better on grass.

Cosi...

Nadal took his chances...he didn't design the ATP schedule, neither does the schedule revolve around to when Nadal can play or not.

Besides, Roger HAS lost to Rafa on his best surface...the 9-7 is painful for a Roger fan, but nevertheless a loss on his best surface.

As I mentioned before, Roger has his chances to right the H2H in Dubai, Miami, Wimby and AO...he didn't take them and Rafa did.

Besides, Roger has had 4 years...yes, 4 years to solve Rafa. He's racked up GS yet he hasn't solved Rafa. He cannot be the greatest player in his generation if he folds quietly at 6-2 in the fifth set of a slam final to his main rival.

"James Taylor was better on grass" For who? Him or the listeners? Lendl was on rosin.

Yes, aussiemarg, you are right, he didn't have to play after AO, that's my point, in Miami he didn't play good, and then worse and worse so in RG his knees were in very bad conditions
I hope he has learned the lesson

That part was left ambiguous on purpose, CL.

Ok, I should really be going. Drink one for me.

what would Rafa kids have to do without that (clay dominated) head to head to cling to? geez...

I was just following NP's lead on the Laver thing. Truth be told I'd probably go jazz for Laver, Brubeck maybe.

Grant, the grateful dead would be prime grass specialists. Useless on anything else. Clash is good, but maybe even Black Flag for JMac.

You know what folks, I have a confession to make. I use to love watching Roger the most before I started to post here. But now I find myself not getting excited by his matches and I think he is becoming boring. I think this is because of all the GOAT and fedal wars that break out every day.

The trouble is that Rafa and Fed are the most interesting players on the tour. I wonder if we could actually go a whole day without discussing them?

I think Pete Sampras

Is Jumping Jack Flash.

Ciao Grant...and I already did! Wheee!!

Angel of the Surf - but that is not Fed's fault...that is US!

I know that but you have turned me off him, I still like him but not as much. I only worked this out this week. Don't get me wrong I love the fact that he has broken PS record.

I going back next door.

"James Taylor was better on grass" For who? Him or the listeners? Lendl was on rosin.

CL "This made me smile".

Oh Tim. If your man had never existed, without that H2H we'd just have to settle for the fact that he'd be a mere six-Slam wonder. Or possibly a seven- or eight-Slam wonder.

it seems to me roger gets penalized for his consistency. he gets to 3 straight roland garros finals and who does he face-arguably the greatest clay court player ever. sampras never had a comparable situation.

the never ending GOAT debate...UNFREAKINGBELIEVABLE...it's hilarious how the GOAT criteria keeps changing everytime the Fed gets another milestone, first it was he had to get to 15, then he had to win the FO, then he had to beat Rafa at the FO, now he's got to turn around the h2h?! Dude has 15 slams, for someone who I thought would forever remain a mental headcase, I'll take it...

ION, the Fed is hanging out with freaking Liverpool and Rafa who still needs to STFU?! UNFREAKINGBELIEVABLE...dude, I suggest you burn that jersey and it had better not see the light of day...pffffttttttttttt

Beckham- and there is photo evidence of the Liverpool meet 'n greet. I take it this is a bad thing?

And yes, the GOAT debate is the GOAT in terms of moving the goal posts.

"UNFREAKINGBELIEVABLE...dude, I suggest you burn that jersey and it had better not see the light of day...pffffttttttttttt"

Good point, well made. ;-)
In his defence though, apparently they were the ones who went to see him.

Tim, you're so predictable! Nothing gives you more joy than posting all things Rafa ;-)

Psapce your comment @7.06 pm was priceless. Now I have 'man in the mirror' playing in my head (wonder if Pete can do the moon walk) :))))

Ok I don't usually get into this but as a Roger fan the h2h doesn't bother me, Roger has 15GS and counting.
As a Rafa fan, I'm not concerned with Roger's GS count. Rafa is 23 and if healthy should get a few more.
I just don't understand the need to put down one to lift the other *shrug*

"James Taylor was probably better on grass."

Best comment yet in the thread.

Funny that Lendl decided to spend his retirement (and train all his daughters) in a sport that takes place entirely on grass.

I take back. All back. Comparing Tennis greats with Rock bands and acts is such a bad idea. I blame it on Scotch. Seemed like a funny idea at the time. Yikes!
Ok.
Fabrice Santoro = Pet Shop Boys.
My bad.

I stop.

Golf is not a bad sport to take up

Gee Tiger hasnt done that badly at it lol!

Uh oh. AM, by now breaking this down to the song level, we'll never get a coherent list :(

AA (AotS) That is truly sad to be put off any player just because of the GOAT wars. I may get irritated with some of the comments on here, but most are well reasoned.

At the end of the day the GOAT is just an opinion, and therefore to each his/her own. It's like arguing over wether maple pecan pie is better than coffee ice cream, the great thing being that we get to have both! *goes to check fridge* Plus, Fedal has zero calories.

TripleF - you are right.

Roddick - Bon Jovi

"Golf is not a bad sport to take up

Gee Tiger hasnt done that badly at it lol!"

Indeed, Aussiemarg. And no pesky H2H issues to worry about, either. ;-)

Who would be the tennis Willie Nelson? I read that Willie sez he has smoked so much grass that he no longer has dreams. THAT would be really weird.

CL- Poor guy burned out his dream circuitry.

Who would be the Tennis Yoko Ono?

One of Willie Nelson's best lines (not of coke), alluding to his tax woes:

When you owe the government $1 million, you're in trouble. When you owe them $20 million, they're in trouble.

Incidentally, I missed the comments on this blog so much while I was out, I'm considering using some text to voice software, so that I can relive said comments while I'm driving or otherwise on the move.

Not really.

And, I've decided to leave jackasses and jennys out of these discussions. Unlike Fedal wars, for example, the activities of jackasses and jennys usually have some economic value.

CL,

Just can't help thinking that would be Goran. Don't ask me why!

I guess it would be Larcher de Brito = Yoko Ono.

"Who would be the Tennis Yoko Ono?"

BlueDog, Mrs. Sampras was called exactly that after Pete got knocked out by Bastl in '02 Wimbledon.

Blue Dog - excellent! Bare Naked Ladies' "Yoko Ono."

Maybe Willie is just TOO....er...laid back... to have a doppelganger in tennis. Although Mr. Jackie sort of comes to mind.

Lynne - hmm...Goran? A little too intense, too say nothing of misogynistic...

Nah Pete still is,

Jumping Jack Flash to me.

Well I am out of here

Its been fun

Stay cool everyone

Later.