You're one full day late, Ed.

Hmmm....let's see how long before this disolves into the endless GOAT debate.

ThyGodisTennis, I'll gladly oblige. Here's the 10,000-word essay I posted last nite re the GOAT question:

Considering that both Laver and Borg lucked out at the magical number of 11, I say this: If you (save Emerson) have won 11 Slams or more, you’re already in the exclusive GOAT club. From then on what matters the most isn’t the # of titles or weeks @ at the top, largely ‘cause there are too damn many variables, but how they in their prime, without any injuries or ailments, would fare against each other in 10 individual matches on every surface, with comparable equipment (that is, racquets of a similar size likely with a mixture of gut and Luxilon for the strings), and under the most neutral conditions (more on this shortly).

So let’s get this par-tay started with the imaginary H2H between Sampras and Federer. Here’s mine (Pete-Fed):

Grass - 7-3 (I’d pick between 8-2 and 7-3 for non-claycourted grass, 7-3 and 6-4 for CC grass, so 7-3)
HC, fast (DecoTurf) - 6-4
HC, slow (Rebound Ace/Plexicushion) - 5-5
Clay - 2-8

A few words on the slow HC H2H. I’m sure many Fed supporters and even some of Pete’s will disagree with my #s, but lemme note that these individual matches are played on a given day, not in the last round at the end of 2 weeks. Now I know many will say this arrangement is unfairly advantageous to Pete ‘cause conditioning/stamina is one area where Fed has the clear edge over him. It’s a fair criticism, but I say, then how are we gonna decide which draws to use? Which years? And if we do swap the years, should we assume Tim Gullikson’s death and Pete’s injuries never happened? What about Fed’s mono? Given all these questions I think the best way is to play the GOATs against each other under the most ideal conditions, but do let me know if you can think of a better way. (I’ll leave aside for now the issue of the often unreasonably extreme conditions at Melbourne Park.)

So I’ve got 20-20, and being the Sampras KAD I am I’ll throw in the H2H for carpet and say it’s 7-3 or 6-4 for Pete. Ergo, Pete wins. Of course your #s may and will vary.

Let me now expand on what I meant by “the most neutral conditions.” The matches should be played at a reasonable temperature, in broad daylight, without rain and hostile crowds, etc. I wanna stress that last part ‘cause Borg allegedly didn’t like the rock-‘n-roll atmosphere of Flushing Meadows and the records show that he played less well under the lights at nighttime. (I’m leaving out the nationality aspect ‘cause I don’t think it affects the players as much as some observers believe. Just note how much lurve the crowd has for Fed even when his opponent is their own countryman.) And the line calls also should be correct (read: impartial). Just about every extra-tennis factor you can think of belongs in this category.

That should do it. Now stats do matter and the conundrum is how much weight to give each stat and the imaginary H2Hs. I’d say the H2Hs should be given the most weight, at least when comparing the elite GOATs. I’d also say intangibles like mental strength and “clutchiness” should be given a small weight, though they’re part of the H2Hs, 2. I’ll let you guys argue over the specific weights.

Speaking of that second set tiebreak - after Roger hit that flick backhand half volley winner to make it 6-3, he followed it up with a service winner out wide from the ad court, and he said "come on!". It was a subtle "come on", but enough to make me think that he felt that he was still in the set. That was one of my favorite moments of the match.

ThyGodisTennis: I say it happens before this thread reaches a second page.

Looking at the picture above Roger does look like a guy use to winning and is poised for the occasion while Roddick looks like a late twenty American male still pretending to be a teenager. Please turn that hat around.

Laver question?

I had read on another blog that when Laver turned pro he did not just waltz into contention with other players and that it took sometime for him to dominate the Slams.

Is that correct?

I don't want to bother Bud Collins.

Is there anybody out there who agrees that the GOAT is purely hypothetical?

ThyGodisTennis, that is correct. Back then Pancho Gonzales and also Hoad were still going strong, and Rosewall was still neck & neck with Rod.

Lynne, for me, the GOAT is entirely mythical, and probably resides somewhere in ancient Greece.

I do have a stable of goats though, and some lovely pasture they can play in.

I can't quarrel with Federer as the hero (fabulous 6 weeks for him), but, I think I would've liked to see Roddic as joint hero.

He came so close on Sunday - removed the inevitability from the 15 for Roger - and for me he deserves a little more than just to be a footnote to history.

Oh yeah, and Ross has already given his nod to Pancho Gonzales. If other similarly "mature" fans out there are eager to share how their pick would fare against Laver, Borg, Sampras and Federer, feel free.

*spelling Roddick in French fashion*

Jewell,

Thanks goodness for that! I was beginning to think that I was some kind of "oddity."

Wonders if there's a kid out there with the talent of Federer, the volley of Edberg, the serve of Sampras, the BH of Nalbandian, the footwork of Federer, the mental strength of Borg, a better FH than Federer, the stamina of Borg and Federer combined, hitting tennis balls against a wall as we speak who will completely turn this GOAT discussion on its head...

jewell: I also believe in the stable of greats. Like I was saying last night, the GOAT discussion would probably be a lot of fun if we were sitting around at a bar talking about it over our favorite drinks.

I, too, had a little nanny goat when I was a smalll child. I loved her more than anything in the world.

TMF looks like he's lost in Liberace's house on his way to Vegas for a lounge lizard act.

Beckham: Now THAT is something mythical ...

Yeah, Sam, as long as I can have tea...if it has to be alcoholic I'll put whisky in it, Isle of Skye blended malt for preference. :)

Nice to see you posting more too. :)

From the competition theory perspective, Marat Safin is also a great. After all, his GS titles came at the expense of Sampras and Fed.

When my husband lived in London in the 70s he had a pet goat...used to take it on the Tube on a lead, as you would a dog.

""Beckham: Now THAT is something mythical ... ""

Or maybe it's Jaden Gill :)

Finally someone else just flat out says Roger Federer is the greatest player of all time.

imjimmy, Marat is certainly in the running for the GOAT. Greatest underachiever, that is.

jewell: Of course you can have tea. ;-) I'm actually about to have a post-lunch cup of green tea.

LOL NP

Thanks jewell. It's nice to have a little more time to post now. It will be short lived though, as I will be going to California for 3 weeks starting Monday (2 weeks for work, 1 week for vacation).

Everyone talks about GOAT and Federer and all that. What about greatest of your era? and what is an era in tennis anyways? is it 10 yrs? 20?
Also, just because someone played during the same time, doesn't mean they competed at the same level. A good example would be Federer playing Agassi...one was in his prime, the other in his later years. When Federer is 31, there could be a 19 yr old who trounces him multiple times in the same year.
All said and done, it just might be easier to fall back on numbers and trophies and let them do the talking. In over a 100 yrs of this sport, there's only one man who won the biggest of all tournaments...15 times.

Sam, my crystal ball sez Marat will go out with a bang and win his last USO.

>>Is there anybody out there who agrees that the GOAT is purely hypothetical?

Schrodinger's GOAT. The GOAT is simultaneously everyone and no one.

"Marat will go out with a bang..."

could Marat possibly go out any other way? ;-)

NP: My crystal ball says Marat will go out in the 2nd round.

let's define 'bang.' Bang as in the noise of multiple smashed racquets? Because if so, I agree.

I was thinking along slightly more salacious lines.

LOL jewell & Hart

jewell, nice try, but no cigar.

Sam, and who is this assh*le party-crasher?

to answer the If question, I say the semi-final...looked to me as if that match, saving MP, gave Serena the extra roar and conviction needed to make Venus lose confidence in the second set. Dementieva played well through the whole match and had to be beaten shot by shot.

The cigar comes afterward, no?

If Marat wins his last USO that would be one amazing party to attend. :)

Stay thirsty, my friends.

jewell, for Marat, not U.

Lock, U gotta pick one: my CB or Sam's CB?

at this point I'd be thrilled if Marat manages to stay in the LA tournament long enough for me to see a match. Doubtful.

Marat will implode before the 4th round. I do not see a Hewitt like charge from the Russian. When I watched Marat destroy Pete at the US Open I thought he would rule tennis. I never saw a beat down like that against a top player. I would say the only comparable beat down was Nadal over Federer at the French.

Sad to see him going with only two Slam titles.

Villain of the fortnight: Vliegen :-(

I'd love to compare the photo at the top of this piece with the equivalents from 2004 and 2005 and see how the facial expressions have changed ;-)

aw, Cotton Jack.

ThyGodisTennis, agree that Marat's demolition of Pete in the '00 USO final was quite something. One of the most jaw-dropping exhibitions I've ever seen.

One again: we can't decide who the GOAT is, because the GOAT hasn't yet been born. Wonder if I can dig up again the list of signs by which we will recognise the GOAT....

He will have a lightning-shaped curse scar on his forehead.

Ah, yes, here it is. I see that repeat postings are very much plat de jour a ce moment, so I make no apologies... ;-)

"The GOAT will only appear once the Australian Open has changed surface to toughened marzipan. The GOAT will start by doing back-to-back calendar slams, one left-handed, one right-handed. He will then do the Channel Slam, winning the French Open serve & volleying with a one-handed backhand and playing Wimbledon 4 yards behind the baseline, hitting double-handed on both sides. He will win the Mixed Doubles at the US Open with a 73-yr-old Martina Navratilova. Though Belgian, he will address the RG crowd in Spanish, and will be cheered for it. He will win the AO on the even-numbered years, and not even enter in the odd-numbered years. Just before winning his 20th Grand Slam title he will marry Marat Safin's daughter on her 18th birthday. He will bear a striking and frankly unfortunate physical resemblence to a mountain-dwelling herbivore."

NP, your CB only makes sense if you're ingesting copious amounts of drugs. :)

Just to add to NP's point about homogenization of surfaces : We need to consider that to win majors in the 70's - 90's you had to beat all kinds of players with different styles i,e baseline, all court, S-V tennis etc. That's bcoz different surfaces rewarded certain playing styles. So there were more surface-specialists (ex: dirt-ballers who didn't venture outside clay for the whole year).
Sadly all that has disappered now with the court speed changes taking away the variety in the game.

Also another important pt is that the seeding system in the 90's was 32 seeds instead of 16 now. So the top guys were more prone to upsets during that time.

In conclusion, although # of slams might be the only thing that a casual tennis fan looks at, it's also worth remembering how hard (or easy) they were to win.

Cotton Jack-

I will bet in 2004 and 2005 there was hope in Andy's eyes. Now, I think he looks like he wants to hit Fed in the head with the plate.

"One again: we can't decide who the GOAT is, because the GOAT hasn't yet been born."

Hey you never know, time might end tomorrow.

I want scream like those spanish commentators on Soccer matches...

GGGG...........OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.............AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA............TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

Listen up: Wait till Roger finishes his career and I hope that'd be after 2015. He will surpass everything and becomes the MOAT (mightest of all time), MWOAT (most wonderful), GHOAT (greatest hair) and whatever.

PS: Friggin' unibrow Sampras! Bugger officiated this whole thing in his book (such ego for a dopey looking guy!) and now look at us!

I am sad for Marat's daughter.

LOL.

I love marzipan so much.

whew, we're debating the headbanging and enoyable, and endless topic of marat instead of the other endless (and old, and useless, and the one that generally brings out the worst) topic of GOAT\FEDAL(they do tend to run together sometimes). Only bad side is that I have to go run errands and so will miss the marat debate and probably get back in the thick of Fedal and GOAT. Oh well.

I'll try to keep the fire going for you, just horsen. ;-)

Jewell - yes, but just think how badly his son's going to turn out!

imaginary head to head....
NP dude you need to get out and get some of the real stuff

Lock, I guess that means no. Must be the side effects from the Vietnam era.

imjimmy, I was gonna bring up the issue of different seeding systems. Props to ya. And another good point re the variety of styles.

>Schrodinger's GOAT.

lol

Hey NP,

Let me just say it plainly so you won't repeat this contrived nonsense over and over again. The numbers below are insanely bogus.

Grass - 7-3 (I’d pick between 8-2 and 7-3 for non-claycourted grass, 7-3 and 6-4 for CC grass, so 7-3)
HC, fast (DecoTurf) - 6-4
HC, slow (Rebound Ace/Plexicushion) - 5-5
Clay - 2-8

To basically say that Sampras is as superior to Federer on grass as Federer is superior to Sampras on clay is - God - you cannot be a citizen of this reality. May I remind you that Federer has done on grass what Sampras couldn't? That is, win 5 Wimbledons in a row? And to pick 2 victories on clay court for a guy who reached semis of FO once, compared to a guy who is possibly the 3rd best clay court player of all time is a freaking, another UnReality Show. Get it on CBS, man. Equally absurd is your totally outlandish, la-la land claim that on DecoTurf HC, Sampras would prevail 6-4. What?!!! Despite a home court advantage Sampras won 4 US Open titles. On the other hand, playing in the age of Agassi, Roddick, and Sampras beaters Hewitt/Safin, Federer won 5 - consecutively. So you think in a neutral environment Sampras would beat Federer 6-4 on this surface? What?!!!

When evaluating Federer against Sampras you have to look at how capably Federer handles the serve and volley opponents. Simply put, when in top form there isn't a better reader of fast serves than Federer (watch the Karlovic game - even Roddick emphasized afterwards that Karlovic has the best serve in game). When in top form there is no better passer than Federer. He will pass you all day long. So peak Federer vs peak Sampras - I don't even know if Sampras breaks even with Federer on Grass, let alone any other surface. If you pull in all other surfaces, this is a might one-sided affair, mate. Picking asshair is a more fruitful exercise than to conjure numbers to prove otherwise.

nT, thx. So how's the unicorn treating ya?

New development on the Djoker, according to Ravi Ubha' s article.
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/wimbledon09/columns/story?columnist=ubha_ravi&id=4309101

Excerpt:

Major disappointment: Novak Djokovic. If he keeps this up, Djokovic figures to be passed by Argentinean upstart Juan Martin Del Potro and Roddick as a threat at the U.S. Open.

There's little shame in losing to streaking German Tommy Haas in the quarterfinals. But Djokovic's admission that he was nervous against Haas isn't a good sign. After all, he's a Grand Slam champion with ample experience.

Nor is the fact it took him so long to recover mentally from May's titanic loss to Nadal -- when Nadal was KO'd physically -- in the Madrid Masters semis.

Djokovic, according to those who were there, celebrated his third-round win over Mardy Fish a little too much at a pub in the Wimbledon village. Not something Federer, Nadal, Murray or Roddick has been known to do.

My answer to any and all GOAT debates:

http://www.goatworld.com/

"...because the GOAT hasn't yet been born."

Which reminds, me, has anyone checked in w/Mirka lately?

Grant - how are you enjoying your plumed hat ahd unicorn walking stick?

That little white one at the top of the page on the right is so adorable, CL.

Maybe I will get a kid instead of a puppy.

Hey Vick Gower,

Let me just say it plainly so I can save the others your amusing stylistic failures and lapses (to put 'em mildly) in logic and judgment. Even many Federer fans who have already crowned him the GOAT admit Sampras would've won more against their hero on grass. I'm not gonna waste my time on the rest of your post. Have a good day.

"When I watched Marat destroy Pete at the US Open I thought he would rule tennis."

Instead, he won the same number of majors after that match as Sampras did.

Here are some questions for those in the know.

1. How long was the grass season in the 1960s? As compared to the month of grass, we have now.
2. In what year did clay gain the longer season then grass?
3. Who the hell let number two happen?
4. Did grass tournaments turn into hard court or clay tournaments or just disappear?
5. What is your guess when the grass court season is removed completely? On the other hand, could the eco movement encourage grass courts? Come on there is an angle that might help revive the surface.
6. There are too many hard court tournaments. Not a question but we are about to enter the nine month season.

"Djokovic, according to those who were there, celebrated his third-round win over Mardy Fish a little too much at a pub in the Wimbledon village. Not something Federer, Nadal, Murray or Roddick has been known to do."

Why does this remind me so much of Marat? Is he headed in the same direction?

I read a whole bunch of articles on Feddick final but not a single word from Nadal. Did anyone see any quotes from Rafa? I don't think he would be too concerned about losing the #1 ranking. As soon as he gets back on track and start playing he'll be as good as new.

Last time I looked he was still The Champion, and still the holder of 15 grand slam titles and the current number one. So I guess in the non-imaginary world the Unicorn is doing pretty ok.
thanks for asking NP

if brought to life, this is what the GOAT debate would look like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg

imjimmy, small correction: You got the seeding systems backwards. 16 seeds in the '90s, 32 today.

Sam, haven't thought of that until now. Good point.

saying sampras would own a winning head to head against federer is silly.

they played. rog won.

Still glowing from #15, and the greatest news of all about #15 is that Beckham is now officially frazzle free, I however, reserve the right to continue to hope the Fed destroys certain players...;)

The GOAT is Gulbis...he's the next dominator...lol

"When I watched Marat destroy Pete at the US Open I thought he would rule tennis."

"Instead, he won the same number of majors after that match as Sampras did."

But not the same before the match. :-)

Hart,

Hilarious!!!!

I seem to have read the NP-Vick Gower argument several times before...guess I'm going to see it play out yet again. ;-)

I don't think I can get on the Marat bus for the USO, not even for fringe benefits - I've already got Rafa, MAndy, Elfie, RAndy, Djokovic, Kolya and Roger to root for. Plus all the players I'd like to see have a reasonable run. Plus anybody else I decide I like a little bit before then.

Oh man if I had known that the GOAT debate would turn into imaginary head-to-head I wouldn't have been so down on it.

Bjorn Borg vs. Batman

HC - 3-7 (At day I'll give the edge to Borg, but Borg suffers under the lights, whereas Batman is always able to hide in the shadows)
Clay - 9-1 (Batman has a lot of practice moving on ice, but very little on clay. I gave him one win because at some point he'll remember the can of topspin repellant on his utility belt)

although Marat will probably roll into the third category.

actually, Grant, our matchup is usually pretty close, that is until I reach for the can of bjorn borg batspray.

"how are you enjoying your plumed hat ahd unicorn walking stick?"

Have you created a logo for me and plastered it all over them? Because I can't be wandering about like a logo-less chump.

LOL Grant!!

lollipop, let's not go too far. Nole hasn't reminded me of Marat, behavior-wise.

nT, I guess you haven't grasped the point of the imaginary H2Hs. Thx for the input.

Grant: ROFLMAO...

didn't read your batspray joke before i wrote mine...

Hart -wonderful! but I think a typical TWIBE goat 'discussion' goes a bit more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Today is Tuesday, right? Borg is the GOAT.

Monday = Laverday
Tuesday = Borgday
Wednesday = Samprasday
Thursday = Federerday
Friday = Panchoday
Saturday = Hoadday
Sunday = Tildenday

Ok?

"Djokovic, according to those who were there, celebrated his third-round win over Mardy Fish a little too much at a pub in the Wimbledon village."

This kid totally confuses me. I don't know if I should feel bad for him or hate him.

These h2hs are a lot more fun

Andy Murray vs Bluntman and Chronic

7-1 on Grass
2-4 on the hard stuff

LOL Grant...beginning to sound like GOAT Top Trumps.

I think the US Open is going to be mightily interesting..

Rafa Nadal: will be back and hungry and ready for war
Roger Federer: too relaxed? baby effect?
Andy Murray: best surface, best chance to win first slam
Novak Djokovic: time for redemption
Andy Roddick: Version 2.0, home court advantage, umpteenth try for slam number 2
JMDP: be part of the conversation
Tsonga?

Pspace - what about Willie Renshaw EH?! >:-(

In actuality we don't need any imaginary head to heads. If you think that Fed was only playing Andy Roddick out on that court this past Sunday you are missing something. He was playing Sampras, and laver and anyone else who might be considered great. He was playing Roddick and had the weight of all those guys records and achievements bearing down on him.
Sunday was extraordinary in that he did not buckle under the sheer weight of all that history combined with Roddicks brilliance on the day.
Federer is the Greatest... and the next player that wants to claim that for himself will have to fight not only the players of his generation but be prepared to face off against the legacy that precedes him.

greenhopper: You could always feel bad for hating him ...

sorry Grant - we were just coming to the logo part when pagination called. The 12 or 18 pockets on your jacket each bear the crest of a Canadian beer company so that is a start. (There ARE 12 or 18 Canadian beer companies right?) How about batman riding a unicorn rampant on a field of ego?

Thanks NP. Realized that I posted it backwards...shd have been more careful.

Anyway, I think they doubled from 16 to 32 in '01 right? Anyway the pt was that the top seeds were more prone to upsets in the older system.

PSpace...what about Rafa?

What do you call the person who defeats the GOAT? Or one of the GOATs?