Fudge - sorry for the double post...typepad lies. again.

Whitney: I'm feeling evil and would be ok with them all losing and letting the underdogs duke it out! However, as I'm sure they won't cooperate and all lose I'd like Fed, Andy R, Del Potro, Murray (although if Davydenko won that would be ok) But I don't think he will

Sokol, I see your are happy, your Russian girls won't have to worry about Williamsova. How the heck did Bepa lose to Dani? She's a better player. Sokol, I just watched that match, Sybil had 9 winners and Serena 44 UE. That about says it all for that match. Sybil got the ball back.

so Dina-Kim will be at 2:15pm... SBing for me again :-((((... I should take some relaxing pills or something...

"How the heck did Bepa lose to Dani?"

yeah, good question.... :-(((

Cincinnati
Pennetta over V Williams 7-6(2),6-4
Hantuchova over Zvonareva 7-6(8),0-6,7-6(5)
Clijsters over Kuznetsova 6-4,4-6,6-2
Wozniacki over Czink 3-0(ret.)
Dementieva over Cirstea 6-4,6-4
Bammer over S Williams 7-5,6-4
Jankovic over Azarenka 7-5,7-6(4)
Safina over Peng 6-3,6-4

Montreal
Djokovic over Youzhny 6-3,6-4
Del Potro over Hanescu 3-6,6-3,6-4
Roddick over Verdasco 7-6(2),4-6,7-6(5)
Murray over Ferrero 6-1,6-3
Davydenko over Gonzalez 7-6(2),7-5
Nadal over Petzschner 6-3,6-2
Federer over Wawrinka 6-3,7-5(5)
Tsonga over Simon 6-3,6-3

Cincinnati Order of Play:
Caroline Wozniacki vs Elena Dementieva at Noon
Dinara Safina vs Kim Clijsters at 2:15 PM
Flavia Pennetta vs Daniela Hantuchova
Jelena Jankovic vs Sybille Bammer at 7 PM

ESPN2 will have delayed coverage from 5-7 PM
Tennis Channel will have delayed coverage from 9 PM to 1 AM

Montreal Order of Play:
Andy Murray vs Nikolay Davydenko at 1 PM on ESPN2
Roger Federer vs Jo-Wilfried Tsonga on ESPN2
Andy Roddick vs Novak Djokovic at 7 PM on ESPN2
Juan Martin Del Potro vs Rafael Nadal

"VC, well, you know my thoughts on USO '08 F. Some1 got 24hrs to recover while some1 else didn't."

LOL, Pspace. It was a mere set and a half. How on earth does he manage to win these MS titles if that's a problem for Murray? And it's something he'll have to get used to quickly, with the Super Saturday format of the USO. ;-)

CL, hehe, that's why I cited Madrid '08. It stands alone, as the only match where there are no excuses. Fed had everything on his side...fresh off USO win, good form etc. And, he lost. Shanghai was close because Muzz was bored playing a lame duck. He also lost focus when Rafa was limping in Rotterdam. Not new.

"your Russian girls won't have to worry about Williamsova"

true, but there's Kim, who took out Sveta. I hope Dinara will be able to hit through her or find another way to beat her...

Pspace: Lestat is welcome to all the 3 setters he wants as long as we continue to have the upperhand in the 5 setters...;)

"Sybil had 9 winners and Serena 44 UE. That about says it all for that match. Sybil got the ball back."

I see, that explains that...

Also good win for JJ over the other Shreiker

People are always talking about Vika being the best of the young players. Caro is in the quarters and she went out to JJ who hasn't played well all year. Hmmm!

Samantha Elin,
Thanks for the analysis on why Serena lost. No wonder when I looked at the SB before I left from day job as she was saving BP consistently early in the match. Do you think Caro will beat Elena 3 times in a row? Speaking of Victoria, I would not count her out yet but if she do not make the QF at USO(other than losing to WS) then I may read into your comments.

Seriously though, Federer in today's form doesn't stand a chance against Murray. I have all the confidence that he'll up his level when he needs to, though. :-)

VC, hehe, just sayin'...if Fed hadn't had the rest, he'd prolly have sucked just as bad. Anyways, that match was decided on a blown line call, when Fed's shot on BP in the second wasn't called out...Muzz really didn't have a choice but to keep playing. See you had to bring it up, right? ;-)

Well, I was very happy to see JJ with a good win today.

JJ beat Azarenka? *surprised*

why did they put JJ for a niht match, now that Serena is out Dina-Kim is the most interesting match, why, why did they chose JJ-Bammer for the night match? :-((( bad decision, IMHO

Safina over Peng 6-3,6-4

- Just how did that happen? You know I heart you, Dinara, you go girl!

Tsonga over Simon 6-3,6-3

- Sorry Jackie. I should stop predicting against ur hubby.

"niht"="night"

And, Master Ace, thanks again for your labor of love to the TW community!

Patrick, Caro gives Lena a lot of trouble. I'm not counting Vika out, I'm just saying I don't agree with most of the hype I hear about her. If Lisicki could be more consistent I think she will turn out to be a better player because of her great serve.

"And, Master Ace, thanks again for your labor of love to the TW community!"

I'll sign up below this too :-) THANKS, MA!

Pspace, let's leave it... you clearly have a bit of a blind spot about that match. ;-) Just pulling your leg, anyway.

But I haven't seen Federer ever offer up lack of rest/long matches/fatigue/scheduling etc. etc. as an explanation or a mitigating factor for a loss. Neither have I ever analyzed his losses from that perspective. It never seems to affect the old man much. :-)

Even though the WS are gone, Cincinnati is still interesting even though Montreal is now 2 times better at least because their top 8 seeds are still playing. Now, if 7 or all of the top 8 seeds make the QF at Cincinnati, I would be very impressed as the ATP does not do well in Cincinnati compared to Canada. Jelena has a golden chance to win a title as her draw opens up nicely. Flavia is on a 14 match winning streak and should be 15 after tomorrow. Now, the organizers want Kim to continue her magical ride.

Heh - if only Muzzah had "kept playing" better he might have avoided being schooled by Fed. And if only he had "kept playing" better he might have avoided being totally out played by Roddick at Wimby. But, "never mind", as Edith Ann would say.

Oh piffle, I am SO lame at trash talk. Have NO idea who is gonna win this whole thing...kinda looks like a toss up among lots of guys dealing with lots of issues. Lestat is actually the only one minus baggage. Unless of course you include disappointing an entire nation as 'baggage.'

some exciting matches tomorrow...
can't wait

My picks (or more like hoping:-)):
Cinci- Lena, Dina, Flavia, JJ

Montreal- Kolya (I know, I know, MAndy looks too strong but I can't pick against Kolya :-)), Roger, Novak, Delpo

CL: you should get into football, it will make you a fabulous, trash talker...lol

Sokol and Jake,
Thanks.

CL, What does grass have to do with HC? Oh the irony in my moniker...but too lazy to change it.

pity there isn't a stream for this doubles match.
Bluber take it 13-11 in the STB against Nads and BMat.

VC, hehe, Federer is not really human. He doesn't get tired and all that. Others actually need icebaths and massages. Tennis is tiring!

My picks for tomorrow, JJ will make short work of Bammer. I think this is the easiest match. Bammer even being in a quarter of a tourney this strong is unsual. Safina over Kim in three sets, Caro over Demmy, Flavia over Dani.

There seems to be an underlying assumption btw that Elf will take out Rafa. Like Roger, I think what matters is not their level of play in the last match but the rate of improvement from the one before.

In any case, with the top 8 all playing tomorrow anything can happen. And unlike some others, I have WalMart CB to help with predictions. Since any one of these guys can beat the other on any given day, I've now decided on strident agnosticism about tomorrow's outcomes.

Well, everyone, I think I will be off too. Have a goood night everyone.

Master Ace: Many thanks to you, you really are an Ace.

should be "I have no WalMart CB"

Pspace - I believe a yellow, fuzzy ball is used on all surfaces. Including 'that' USO.

Beckham - I haven't fully committed to footaball since the Fran Tarkenton's NY Giants...(fair weather Patriots fan)...too late to go back now.

JohnC, good point. Kolya actually played a great match to kick Muzz out of TMC last year. If he can duplicate that form, it's certainly not a given. Both of them lost to Gonzo at RG...so it looks like it's a possibility.

John C - right...and Elf seems to have 'issues' of his own. (shoulder.)

CL: ummm I guess I should have said "soccer" but I really meant futbol and not American football...;)

ok, TW...
good night... I'll see you all tomorrow...

Lynne,
Thanks.

Samantha Elin,
Predicted winners are Cljisters, Pennetta, Dementieva, and Jankovic.

Patrick, Caro has Demmy number, beat her in their last two matches and in an exhibition in Denmark. The Safina, Kim one was hard for me, just not ready to jump on the bandwagon yet because I've seen a player have a good run at one tourney too many times.

Philadelphia Eagles signed Michael Vick to 2 yr contract

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4397938

wow, I just checked the draw challenge before going to sleep and was surprised to see that I picked all the QFs correctly... this is the first time, I think...

ok, now I'm off for sure... :-))

OmG, how could an NFL team sign him. There will be so many people who won't be buying Eagles tickets. Nobody who loves animals should support this team. I hope PETA protestes every game.

Samantha Elin,
Agree that Dinara/Kim was the hardest to choose. Just have a feeling that Elena will break Caro's run. However, if Caroline wins, she will have a golden chance to make a Premier 5 Final. If she does that, she will be the 2nd WTA player(Dinara) to make a final in ALL WTA classifications, Mandatory(Madrid), Premier(Eastbourne), and International(Ponte Vedra Beach).

Yeah, Davydenko is on a good run of form. I'm hoping he gives Murray a test tomorrow.

Beckham - lol...and this 'CL-er" should know better, no? No can do futbol. I am trying to work up to cricket, but cricket may be, like Latin and learning to whistle, something that can be mastered only when very young.

g-night all.

PS - Pspace - don't forget to turn Lestat's coffin away from the east.

Ok, some good match up, but I sure would have preferred a Serena vs Jankovic to a Bammer. I like the big star match up. Ok, off to look up the Eagles E-mail address so I can make my complaint. I plan oo telling them just what I think of this. Good nite all.

Carrie,

I saw that you asked about Kolya´s form. Like VC says Kolya is in great shape and today played a perfect match. I never saw Kolya hit the ball as hard as today and as speedy as usual with his counterattack to weather the storm of Gonzo´s bombs.

Against Murray the question is Kolya´s frame of mind, if he plays like today he has a chance, but if he starts missing shots and grows too impatient with Murray´s tactics which include slices, moonballs, drop shots, he will be in the losing side.

Good nite, SamElin.

Michael Vick, certainly, is not the most likeable person, but he deserves to live - unless you think he deserves the death penalty or life imprisonment for his crime against dogs?

I say, give him a chance to redeem himself.

He's served time, paid a stiff fine, including $millions of dollars in revenue he lost from endorsements, etc.

Let us show some heart is all I'm asking.

Hmm..not sure why my Eagles signed Vick. Maybe they'll use him as an RB/WR or for trick plays. Anyways, I think every1 deserves a second chance, especially given the harsh sentence Vick received.

Jake, Let us show some heart." I do Jake for the suffering of innocent animals who can't defend themselves against a 3OO pound bully like Vick. I would never eat meat because that isn't why animals were put on earth. If people had more respect for the rights of animals we wouldn't have people like Vick or people who think a football career is more important than the lives of animals.

Thanks linex and all others who filled me in re:Koyla.

In terms of Michael Vick, I do care deeply about animals and support animal charities. But I do agree with Jake and Pscpace that he has served his time. He has been punished. I have to hope that he has been reformed and think he should be given a second chance. I don't think prison should just be a place for people to rot - I hope it is a place where people can be reformed and start back on the right path. I do feel that people who have served in prison should not be allowed to have any sort of life when they get out. I think if people want to boo him- that is fine and they have every right to do so. But since he has been punished and has completed the punishment I can not get on board with the idea that his punishment should be indefinate.

Pspace: I thought I'd given a pretty clear explanation of the consequences of The Call That Never Was in a post shortly after USO F 2008:

"US Open 2008: Andy Murray sees a Federer BH sail long at BP in the second set. A master tactician, Murray quickly plays out the remainder of the match in his head if he were to stop play and challenge. The Scot's uncanny tennis brain shows him that he'd lose a final set tiebreak 10-8, suffer unbearable disappointment, and miss his flight home for "Och It's Wee Andy," the new tennis quiz show which has swept Britain. He decides to accept the call, despite knowing that he'll go on to suffer a straight sets loss instead."

http://tennisworld.typepad.com/tennisworld/2008/09/uso-cc-day-15-n/comments/page/2/#comments

Yeah. As long as it's the 20 vegetarians per city doing be booing, Vick should be fine ;-). I eat meat, and enjoy my place on the top of the food chain. So, not gonna complain too much.

Andrew, yeah, that sounds about right...not! ;-)

sokol that is what I want to know, about Vera's lost maybe she is still trying to find her way back.

Both WS losing today, I'm a bit surprised at Serena losing.

Pspace- I don't think only vegetarians can be horrified by dog fighting, at least I freaking hope not. :) Just because someone eats beef does not mean that they can't be bothered by dog fighting or other acts of animal cruelity.

I hate dog fighting and loathe what Vick did. But I do think he deserves a second chance.

Hehe, Andrew. In reality, I don't think even Pspace would really ascribe Lestat's loss at the USO to a single call. The thing just wasn't that close. Another bad serving day by the Scot might be closer to the mark, as it was at Wimby together with peculiarly passive play (ok, plan A's not working, what's plan B).

SamElin,

Simple question: What do you think is a fair and just punishment for what Vick did?

Carrie, ever been to a slaughter house? That's pretty much what one is condoning by eating meet, imv. I've prolly eaten more cows and pigs than the dogs that Vick killed. Don't really see how his acts are so much more heinous than mine.

Anyways, my views on these issues tend to be a tad extreme. I've heard the argument that dogs/pets should have some special status. Don't buy it.

*that would be meat. Not meet.

I think people need to really read up on Vick. Vick didn't just participate in dog fighting, he threw the family dog into a cage with pit bulls so the small dog could be tore a part. Dogs who refused to fight were beatened to death with mallets. This is sadistic behavior and this is why his sentence was so severe. But its Ok because he must play football. I apologize for being so discriptive, but I want people to know how truly cruel he was. But nevermind, football is so important.

LOL, Andrew.

"In reality, I don't think even Pspace would really ascribe Lestat's loss at the USO to a single call."

Yeah, Pspace is just doing his bit of Lestat-inspired trash-talking. ;-)

PSpace- I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree then. I do not condone dog fighting and have seen the affects that it can have on dogs. I don't think I will change your mind so I will not try. I loathe animal abuse full stop.

I am very aware of conditions of slaughterhouses and am a member of the Humane Farming Association.

Well I'm glad some one gave Vick a 2nd chance. He's paid his time and now it's time for him to try to make a living again. Heck, I understand an NFL player who was drunk driving killed someone and he just got suspended by the NFL for 1 year. He'll be back next year. If he can be back - then Vick definitely should get a 2nd shot.

As for tennis.. The WTA day wasn't one of my favorites with Serena, Venus and Victoria and Kuzzy all losing! gee! But I'm warming up to Pennetta and I'm glad to see Kuzzy back.

On the men! Thank god Roger came through. I hate to see him and Stan play against each other because I like both of them and it's like watching 'brothers' play each other. But I was still 100% behind Roger...will always be regardless of who he plays. So I'm happy that he won.

I really enjoyed the "toast" that they did for Roger and Mirka during the match. That was a nice touch.

I don't know about the Vick affair, but it sounds pretty sordid from Samantha's description.

"Carrie, ever been to a slaughter house? That's pretty much what one is condoning by eating meet, imv."

This is true. I vowed not to touch non-vegetarian food after I saw some chickens and pigs getting slaughtered once. It was horrific. But at the same time, I enjoy watching lions killing deer on National Geographic Channel, so I'm a bit strange.

Nice post Pspace!

Hehe, yeah. Imv, all these excuses are just bs as far as the match in question is considered. Muzz prolly shanked a shot which landed on the line to even it out. Such is tennis.

The joys of trash-talk are under-rated ;-).

VC, yeah, but it was just trash talk :-)

On the Vick thing, the broader issue is not about crime and punishment or even cruelty per se, but the role of character in elite sports. Sure the guy has served his time and is entitled to get on with his life. But should a sports body/team be recruiting and promoting persons of clearly questionable character.

This comes up in many different circumstances, with sexual harassment and rape being distressingly common, as well as drug use. What responsibilities do sporting authorities have to maintaining a standard of behaviour and good character as part of their informal but real charter to the public?

Cincinnati Quarterfinal Preview:

Dinara Safina vs Kim Clijsters
Dinara survived her first match against Roberta Vinci as Roberta served for it in the second set. Kim is the story of the tournament as she has won 3 matches against solid opponents but she has done this before after being out.
Prediction - Clijsters continues her magical ride

Flavia Pennetta vs Daniela Hantuchova
Flavia is on a 14 match winning streak capped off by beating Venus Williams in straight sets. Daniela is trying to get her game in order to make another deep Slam run in a few weeks so her SF run in the 2008 AO is not a fluke.
Prediction - Pennetta to make the WTA Top 10 without being tied with Ivanovic

Caroline Wozniacki vs Elena Dementieva
Caroline had a very short day in the 3rd round after a tough match with Aleksandra Wozniak on Wednesday. Elena is trying to break a 2 match(3 if counting exo) losing streak to Caroline
Prediction - Dementieva makes another run at a Slam by doing good at a pre-Slam tournament (ie - Auckland and Sydney before AO)

Jelena Jankovic vs Sybille Bammer
Jelena finally got her first Top 10 win of 2009 as she defeated Victoria Azarenka in 2 tight sets. Sybille scored the upset of the tournament as she defeated an error prone Serena Williams in straight sets.
Prediction - Jankovic as Bammer will not be able to recover from an emotional win against Serena

Pspace, with you that the Vick controversy is way overblown, but there's one crucial difference. Cows and pigs are killed and eaten by other omnivores and carnivores in the wild, but pets by definition have been kept in human environs.

Thank you John C, beautiful post. "Promoting persons of clearly questionable character." So well said. Any wonder the NFL produced an OJ Simpson.

VC- there are some more humane options for folks who can't give up meat. Including foods that are labeled Certified Humane etc., organic or free range or even halel or kosher if the other items are not available.

You everthing that these athletes do so much because they have been allowed to get away with so much, and know they will still have their careers? NP, great post.

Carrie, not that I condone dog fighting. I like dogs, though I'm more of a cat person. I detest cows, having been chased several times by them. They just don't like me. Vengeance is sweet.

Jokes aside. I just have trouble reconciling why non-vegetarianism is different from other forms of cruelty. Doesn't seem very logical to me...but logic probably has nothing to do with it.

"Heck, I understand an NFL player who was drunk driving killed someone and he just got suspended by the NFL for 1 year."

I'd say that deserves far more censure and punishment than what Vick did.

Samantha, you're such a carnivore. :)

Carrie : Don't get me wrong, I don't think non-vegetarians are hypocritical to be outraged by animal abuse. It was much easier for me because I had been brought up in a vegetarian family and only tried non-vegetarian food out of curiosity. And gave it up when I saw that regrettable incident that I mentioned. No doubt, there are more humane ways of producing meat that I am unaware of.

Pspsce- as I mentioned there are more humane ways to raise farm animals. But again- I will just have to respect your opinion even though I do not agree that any one eating meet is the same as other forms of animal creulity. That is why I am a big fan of the humane farming association. You may think it is hogwash as is your right, but I think there are benefits to having humane farming.

Pspace, I'm going to explain the difference to you. There is a clear difference between someone who sadistically beats to death an animal who you are suppose to love and protect, and someone who pulls up to a McDonalds and order a big Mac. The latter I have no problems with to each his own, the former I have BIG problems with. Sorry you can't understand the difference, but there really is a huge difference.

Samantha,

"""
I'm going to explain the difference to you.
...
The latter I have no problems with to each his own, the former I have BIG problems with.
"""

Fear of you is a good enough reason. I stand corrected.

"I detest cows, having been chased several times by them. They just don't like me."

Well, that's the first time I've ever heard anything of the sort. :-) I've never known a cow that wasn't sweet and docile. Stray dogs, on the other hand...

And one more thing Pspace, you mightn't want to ask a hungry Lion if he thinks you are at the "top of the foodchain." Good nite all. And may the best players wins.

VC- I wasn't trying to imply that you meant that non-vegetarians were hypocrites at all. :) Just that luckily there are some alternatives for folks who can't give up meat. And still not everyone can do that I understand as sometimes the certified options are more expensive or not available.

I apologize if I am coming off as self-rightous- I do not mean too.

This is truly a red meat post.

Samantha: agree Caro may have Demmy figured out...good luck to her.
MA: really?.....you don't think Safina may come out ahead?

Pspace, that wasn't my point. My point was to show there is a difference between someone eating meat and someone hurting animal. Please have a great night.

No problem, Carrie. :-)

Mr. and Mrs. D.,
I think Kim will have enough in the tank left to win tomorrow but if Dinara wins, I think she win the entire tournament.

SamElin:

I respect your commitment to never eat meat. Hope you'll respect mine and others' to eat meat.

Like Carrie said, we don't have to be vegetarians to be against cruelty towards animals.

Crime and (proportionate) punishment is fundamental to our legal system, which is why, for instance, we distinguish between murder (various degrees), manslaughter, etc. even though they all resulted in the loss of a human life.

I doubt that many mainstream Americans would have Vick as a friend. I wouldn't - even prior to his crimes coming to the fore.
He is just not my kind of friend or pal.

But that in no way prevents me from enjoying the display of his talent and admiring the hard work he put into honing that talent into what it became.

He is a human being, a citizen, and deserves the right, after paying his debt to society, to earning a living and leading a more productive life.

Now I see JohnC makes very good points about what effect promoting such tainted indivuduals would have on society - children especially.

I'd say this: there are DEGREES of repugnance. A CONVICTED RAPIST would NEVER have been re-hired, period. Collectively, our society has not come to the point of putting someone away for good for cruelty to animals as in Vick's case.

It doesn't mean that that time may never come - it sure would as society advances, but a voiceferous minority cannot force it upon us all. Just as overt racism 200 years ago was commonplace, and today is so repugnant to manistream society.

So SamElin, you may have a leg up on all of us damned, "meat-eatarian" heathens, but please let us choose our own poison, ok?

Samantha, but the only argument you gave is that you had a BIG problem with one, and not so much with the other. As, I said that's a good enough reason, for me.

Ummm...as for that Lion...does Pspace get his weapon of choice during said questioning?

Anyways, this is all waaaaaaay out of the realm of a tennis board. So, 'nite. And, Kom nu Caroline!

I think everyone with a minimal ethical education understands what intentional cruelty is: gaining pleasure from deliberately inflicting pain and suffering on humans or other animals.

This is not about vegetarianism, tofu vs T-bone, but about how we want to set our moral compass, both for our children and society as a whole. Those in the public eye, which includes elite sports people, have a responsibility to set an example and police their own ranks if they care about the world in which we live.

Good post, JohnC. That sums it up.

MA: just saw Dina and Kimmie's HtoH....1-6 (ouch!)....suddenly I'm not feeling so confident for dinara:(

Going to give TypePad a rest on this post, setting up an overflow:

http://tennisworld.typepad.com/tennisworld_overflow/2009/08/montreal-crisis-center-day-4-overflow.html

Beautiful JohnC, just beautifully said. Pspace, peace and LOL!"Does Pspace get his weapon of choice. Great line.

JohnC, I don't wanna drag this discussion to the overflow. But, there's cruelty you condone directly, and that you condone indirectly.

As Carrie pointed out, humane farming has not replaced the cruelty in the slaugther houses because of the economic realities of the situation. Given that the only way many ppl can afford to eat meat is via raising animals in inhuman conditions, it seems perhaps only slightly better than dog fighting to me.

Ethical dilemna, I'd say.