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Just Another Match, Just Another Town 08/04/2010 - 10:36 AM

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by Pete Bodo

Mornin'. Time to refill the coffee cup and mull over the daily carnival of tennis news. BTW, I'm a regular if somewhat reluctant customer and fan of REI, the camping and outdoors sports outfitters. Yesterday, I ordered a pretty slick product from them for our upcoming trip to the Adirondacks. It's a combination coffee mug/press that enables you to brew up and drink a cup of coffee in one fell swoop. The mug also has a separate, watertight compartment in the bottom where you can store fresh grounds, in case you want to brew up another jolt.

On past trips I've always used a dinged-up tin percolator, and I enjoy the smell of roasting coffee in the morning. So this mug (a classic example of over-engineering if I ever saw one) may make me feel like I've joined the BGY, or the Brotherhood of the Green Yuppies (you can identify them easily by the $7,000 mountain bike, the Volvo with the Thule kayak rack, the $450 sun dress made from recycled plastic water bottles). I wonder if it was a mistake to get these mugs. But I sure do love good coffee, something which my little percolator is hard-pressed to produce.

Anyway, on to the news of the day. Mardy Fish kicked off his campaign at the Legg Mason Tennis Classic (Washington) with a routine win over Viktor Troicki of Serbia. It was Fish's 11th consecutive win, and puts him on track to win his third title in as many tournaments. Remember, he also reached the final at Queens (l. to Sam Querrey). After his obligatory, disappointing loss at Wimbledon (it isn't Wimbledon if Fish doesn't go down in flames early), he's not lost a match. He's 17 of 19 since Queens, which is a great run no matter how you look at it. Is he shaping up as a hard-court terror, the Juan Martin del Potro of 2010?

—But the Washington result that stands out to me is Fernando Verdasco's win from two match points down against Germany's Michael Berrer, a 30-year-old ranked just inside the Top 50 (Verdasco is No. 10). In the big picture, this was just another match in just another tournament in just another town. But it's exactly the kind of match that a player like Verdasco needs to win. Fernando has shown frequent flashes of Top 5 talent, but just Top 30 consistency. This year, though, he seems to have reached a different level. And it's the level at which he must win matches like the one he snatched out of the fire yesterday. The prognosis is pretty good, judging from this comment he made.

"Even when I was match points down I just tried to not make mistakes and force him to hit a winner to win the match. When I broke back, I started to get confidence and then broke him again. Those four games were the best of the match for me."

You can't fault Verdasco for being proud of that performance, despite Berrer's modest CV. Although Verdasco might not think of it exactly this way, his obvious delight was that of a player who has figured out the game. He knows how to calibrate his strategy and shot selection; he knows not to panic, and seems to be learning to walk that fine line between aggression and passivity when he's in a jam. The other guy wants the match? Let him try to take it. Use your talents to make him earn it, instead of gambling on your ability to win it.

103159546 —Over on the WTA side, where the Mercury Insurance Open (San Diego) is underway, the marquee match-up today, and one that I'm going to try to catch some of, finds Melanie Oudin battling Slammin' Sammy Stosur. It's a good test for Oudin, partly because the afterglow of Stosur's run to the French Open final seems to have faded, but she's still a Top 5 player and she likes the hard courts. In the mental matchup, Oudin has that aura that can intimidate a player like Stosur, who once was one of the outstanding "head cases" on the WTA tour. BTW, Oudin is blogging for us on the home page—check it out.

—And did you see that Serena Williams and John Isner are going to represent the U.S. in Hopman Cup play next January? Sure, it's a long way off, but I like this pairing. Couple of American kids with very different personalities and from very different backgrounds. I'll bet they get along like a house on fire. I've come to believe that Serena functions better in an intimate context. I think she's more appealing as a friend and, in Isner's case, co-worker than a "personality" on the public stage. I know that when I spend time with her in small group meetings, she's always delightful. And that's not always the case in, say, the impersonal setting of the main interview room.

—And finally, I received this e-mail from my pal and astute tennis junkie, Steve Manning:

Coaching for Cahill will come down to "kinda" like drowning: It is only uncomfortable for the first two, three minutes. Then one can stand it for days...

Wonder what an offer from Gulbis would do to the Cahill's commitments to ESPN & Adidas paradigm?  Considering that Gulbis papa can likely buy both Adidas and ESPN. At least relevant/voting rights percentages of both. All that money and unlimited travel privileges (bet Darren can get his own jet too); read that as more and quality family time for Darren. Ahhh. To drown in such style...

Apart from being funny (and Gulbis having a coach in Hernan Gumy, last I checked), I think this is an intriguing idea. Gulbis is a champion manque, and he would give be relatively unformed but promising clay with which to work. It might seems a step back for Cahill, a guy who positioned himself as a coach to the superstars, but he would also reap the rewards of turning a flawed player into a champ. It's probably idle speculation, though. Would you give up a plum job as an ESPN commentator—a role that has expiration date—for the uncertainty that any coach faces?

And a P.S.: No disrespect to Gumy intended in this. We're just chewing the fat, right?



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Posted by Sherlock 08/05/2010 at 08:20 AM

He he, MA. Work calls early this morning. I only wish it was a 700k commitment I was tending to. :)

Posted by Master Ace 08/05/2010 at 08:26 AM

Tennistv.com will start streaming the ATP today as they will cover 9 matches this week and Tennis Channel will start coverage at 4 PM. Will San Diego have coverage today? Answer is of course, not. Wish radiotennis.com would have done Jelena/Alisa last night but understood why they did not. He said that he has a 2.5 hour drive home to LA and with him scheduled to be away from home the next 3 weeks, wise move on his part.

Radiotennis.com schedule for the next 3 weeks
Cincinnati(WTA) - 8/7 to 8/10
Cincinnati(ATP) - 8/14 to 8/17
New Haven - 8/21 to 8/23
USO Qualifying - 8/24 to 8/27

Posted by wilson75 08/05/2010 at 08:27 AM

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm looking forward to ESPN's coverage the USO...the wall to wall coverage of Isner, over-hyping of Oudin, the rehashing of Serenagate, the proclamation of the end of Roger Federer and heralding of a new king of tennis, the intros featuring some over-paid Hollywood actor who knows nothing about tennis but will be seen in a VIP box on Ashe courtesy of ESPN, Pam in her pearl necklace being the annoying roving reporter, BG predicting every match to be a "beat down", Pmac pretending to be a journalist and all-knowing analysis and the usual statement by ESPN that this is the year for Andy Roddick. Ahh!.. I can't wait!

Posted by Mr. and Mrs. D. 08/05/2010 at 08:32 AM

"One last thing on Oudin"......you promise?:)

Posted by Samantha Elin 08/05/2010 at 08:33 AM

Sherlock, the reason why I compared them is because although she isn't as big as the stars I named, she has recently received attention as the "next big American star." "America's it girl". She is also widely displayed in the USO series commericials, so she is far from an unknown. Again, what would be wrong with asking her why a 6-3,6-1 is a close match?? Is this an unfair question no matter who the player is? Karen, I'm not going along with the media criticism of the women serving, but you have to admit that you don't see the problems in the men's game with Df and many breaks. Perhaps the women deserve some of the heat.

Posted by Mr. and Mrs. D. 08/05/2010 at 08:38 AM

I've had both a broken ankle and a sprained ankle.....the sprain took much, much longer to heal. Yes, I'm a clumsy person.:)

I'm wondering if there's a connection between anke sprains and the fact that it seems to occur to players who are predominantly (bot not always, SamE) receivers....think JJ and Caro. It makes sense to me since these players are willing to run like the wind for every ball.

Posted by Samantha Elin 08/05/2010 at 08:39 AM

LOL Wilson 75, we might get lucky and some of those players could go out early which is what I'm hoping for. LOL, Mr and Mrs, D.

Posted by Samantha Elin 08/05/2010 at 08:46 AM

"P-mac pretending to be a journalist." Sorry, but I have read this three times and it's still as funny as the first time. Yelp, as "a journalist" he had to ask Serena the tough question. Nevermind, we were all tired of this tough question. Well Vee sure made him look like a journalist when she smacked him down to the loud cheer of the audience.

Posted by Master Ace 08/05/2010 at 08:49 AM

With Jelena and Marion out, I do not see the San Diego final being attractive like Stanford but still will be good and I will still be glued to the TV on Sunday.

Posted by sod'sfriend 08/05/2010 at 08:49 AM

marry me alysa!

Posted by Mr. and Mrs. D. 08/05/2010 at 08:51 AM

A question for you SamE: you have every right to post anything you like on Oudin's blog, but personally, I'm disappointed in your comments. Imo, they seem more venomous when you realize the player will actually read them. When McEnroe's father posted here, you apologized for your comments insisting you would never have posted if you'd known he was reading. While posting your anti-Oudin comments here makes sense, I'm wondering why she doesn't get the same treatment as McEnroe on her blog? My only thought is that you want to make sure SHE doesn't believe her hype....in case her coach/team hasn't been doing their job.:)

Like I said, continue posting whatever the TW site rules allow you to post, no reason to make nice when you don't mean it...this was just my opinion.

Posted by wilson75 08/05/2010 at 08:51 AM

SamE: Now that he's got a book published I guess we have to add "author" to Pmac's list of credits. He doesn't know that he is not a journalist but an analyst/commentator.

Posted by Colette 08/05/2010 at 08:58 AM

Mrs D @ 8:32, I had that *copied* but decided to wait.

Re coverage of Oudin at last year's USO ... correct me if I'm wrong, but Melanie was not out on the court by herself, no? She had some pretty coverage-worthy opponents in Sharapova, et. al. and night matches.

Posted by Sherlock 08/05/2010 at 08:59 AM

Samantha, I think we should go find every stupid comment made by lower-ranked players over the years, and then we can talk about why the media didn't press them on their comments as much as they press Roger or Serena.

Oh, but that probably wouldn't matter because this really isn't about the media. It's about Oudin.

But hey, somewhere out there is a lurking TWiber working on a thesis topic of obsession, so please, continue with your Oudin rants. :)

Posted by Mr. and Mrs. D. 08/05/2010 at 09:03 AM

Something about Srebotnik I've always liked....she's one of my OP's in my FOOPdom.

Posted by Samantha Elin 08/05/2010 at 09:09 AM

Mr. and Mrs. D, no apologies from me, I think the questions are tough but fair and maybe the journalist should try a little of it. I think players are public figure and tough questions are fair game. All due respect that your opinion is different from mind. So agree to respectfully disagree. LOL Wilson, there is a diffence between the two.

Posted by Mr. and Mrs. D. 08/05/2010 at 09:11 AM

SamE.....still think you're a secret Oudin fan!:) Maybe Sherlock's lurking TWiber can substantiate my theory that your Oudin posts have finally outnumbered your Caro posts!

Posted by wilson75 08/05/2010 at 09:11 AM

SamE: Perhaps because sometimes he gets to fill in for Chris Fowler, that's why he thinks he's a journalist.

Posted by Sherlock 08/05/2010 at 09:14 AM

Mr. and Mrs. D, I think Samantha's poor English didn't allow her to understand your question comparing Papa Mac and Oudin's blog, therefore she couldn't answer it. :)

Posted by Jamaica Karen (WTA Rules) 08/05/2010 at 09:15 AM

SamE, never believe the hype of what you read about men's tennis. Here is a stat from the men's matches played in Washington yesterday. I am using one name rather than typing out the opponents. Names used does not denote that that person had those stats:
Berdych - 16 break points, 5 converted - 10 double faults
Golubev - 10 break points, 4 converted - 10 double faults
Baghdatis - 9 break points, 2 converted - 9 double faults
Hewitt - 12 break points, 4 converted - 6 double faults (this match ended in a retirement in the first part of the second set)
Stepanek - 9 break points, 4 converted, 8 double faults.

Some will say that the men are going for much more on their serves, but in most of those matches, the ace count is not that high. I will do a sampling of the women's event in San Diego to compare these stats

Posted by Mr. and Mrs. D. 08/05/2010 at 09:15 AM

Sherlock: you noticed that didn't you.:)

Posted by Mr. and Mrs. D. 08/05/2010 at 09:17 AM

JKaren: very, very interesting.

Posted by sisu 08/05/2010 at 09:18 AM

wilson75 @8.27am - thank you for summarizing the USO coverage so well !! May I use it if I send ESPN an email to explain why viewership might be down? ;))

Posted by Jamaica Karen (WTA Rules) 08/05/2010 at 09:20 AM

On the women's side yesterday, of the 4 women's matches played in San Diego, these are the stats:
Jankovic 28 break points, 9 converted, 8 double faults
Safina -14 break points, 8 converted, 4 double faults
Peer - 22 break points, 8 converted, 11 double faults (clearly, this was an awful match)
Stosur - 14 break points, 4 converted, 7 double faults.

As can clearly be seen the men and women are eerily similar in relation to the number of break points faced. However, where it is different is the fact that while many think that in a women's match there is a lot of double faults and breaks of serve, the stats say otherwise. The women may face more break points, but if one was a pessimist they could say that the women are woeful in converting break points. However, I look at it as the women stepping up to the line and able to protect their serves.

I wish the media would put this spin on it, rather than speaking about how weak the women's serve is.

Posted by Jamaica Karen (WTA Rules) 08/05/2010 at 09:25 AM

I will go even further. At this year's Wimbledon, the talk of the tournament was Serena's serve. Her ability to step up to to the line and place her serve just about anywhere in that service box was uncomparable in that fortnight. There was no one on either the men's or women's side who consistently held their serve in the way that Serena did. She went through entire matches without even facing a break point. And that is not an anomaly. You have many women players who play matches without ever facing a break point or losing their serve.

Posted by Master Ace 08/05/2010 at 09:48 AM

"Peer - 22 break points, 8 converted, 11 double faults (clearly, this was an awful match)"

14 were actually converted but I get Jamaica Karen's post.

Posted by Jamaica Karen (WTA Rules) 08/05/2010 at 09:48 AM

If it was not for the fact that I actually like Cirstea I would be rooting for her to lose this match. You so do not pump your fist in your opponent's face. Ugh. Bad sportsmanship and all this shouting and screaming at yourself. She is up a set and a break and acting out. Give me a break.

Posted by Master Ace 08/05/2010 at 09:50 AM

Mr. and Mrs. D.,
As you know, Katarina is an excellent doubles player and in her singles, she was a solid Top 20 until she injured her Achilles late in 2008. 2009 was basically a lost year for her and now, she is trying to get some matches in 2010. Meanwhile, she is back where she belongs in doubles as she found a good partner in Kveta Peschke.

Posted by Samantha Elin 08/05/2010 at 09:52 AM

Mr. and Mrs. D, to answer your question, no, I don't believe papa McEnroe is a public figure or a player, and that is the difference, but a dad who love his son in spite of his flaws as a player. Players are fair game, loving dad's aren't. Karen, if Caro can't win, I will be cheering for V so she can make them eats their words. Serena has won two slam, she doesn't need anymore to validate her. Go V.

Posted by wilson75 08/05/2010 at 10:06 AM

sisu: I give you permission to use at your will.

Posted by jewell - Make tea, not war. 08/05/2010 at 10:24 AM

Hey, everyone. :)

Hm - reading about potential Nadal-Djokovic doubles in Toronto? (from nadalnews on Twitter.) That could be fun. :)

Posted by Sherlock 08/05/2010 at 10:25 AM

"I don't believe papa McEnroe is a public figure or a player, and that is the difference, but a dad who love his son in spite of his flaws as a player. Players are fair game, loving dad's aren't."

You weren't ranting at Papa Mac. You were ranting about J-Mac until you realized that Papa Mac was here reading, and then you apologized. So what if Oudin's mom or dad is reading their daughter's blog?

Posted by Jamaica Karen (WTA Rules) 08/05/2010 at 10:27 AM

@jewell, I just saw that about Nadal/Nole doubles in Toronto. Now if we could only get Fed/Murray or Fed/Roddick, or Fed/Isner or Fed/Fish or Federinka - yaay Federinka

Posted by jewell - Make tea, not war. 08/05/2010 at 10:30 AM

Rogers Cup tweeted it too. Oh!

Samantha - this JJ fan very much appreciated this from you: "may have been wrong I think JJ's injury maybe legitimate. I picked her to win this one, sorry to her fans."

and this: "Get well soon to JJ."

Posted by Master Ace 08/05/2010 at 10:31 AM

Jewell,
Just saw that on Rafael and Novak. Good idea since both guys have the same P.R. person. By the way, they would be the first Top 2 players to play together since Arthur Ashe and Jimmy Connors did it in 1976.

Posted by jewell - Make tea, not war. 08/05/2010 at 10:36 AM

Master Ace - you're incredible. :)

I do hope it comes off.

Posted by Samantha Elin 08/05/2010 at 10:38 AM

you're right Sherlock, I'm sure Oudin mom is reading all this. Ah, right. You're welcome Jewell.

Posted by Sherlock 08/05/2010 at 10:38 AM

"By the way, they would be the first Top 2 players to play together since Arthur Ashe and Jimmy Connors did it in 1976."

Wow, awesome info there, MA. I had never heard that before. Do you know where those two played? Didn't Ashe just beat Jimbo the year before at Wimbledon? Quite the interesting timing. :)

Posted by Caroline 08/05/2010 at 10:48 AM

I'd love to see Roger playing doubles with Philipp K.

Posted by jewell - Make tea, not war. 08/05/2010 at 10:53 AM

"rogerscupto Tournament Director Karl Hale has confirmed that the twitter rumours are true! Nadal and Djokovic will team up in doubles in Toronto!"

yay!

Posted by Master Ace 08/05/2010 at 10:55 AM

Sherlock,
Washington DC and/or North Conway NH depending on their ranking at the time. I want to say they played both as 1 and 2.

Posted by J and J 08/05/2010 at 10:56 AM

I will be glad when the US Open is over and Caro will finally not be described any longer as reigning USO finalist.

Posted by Kwaku 08/05/2010 at 10:56 AM

JK,
"Some will say that the men are going for much more on their serves, but in most of those matches, the ace count is not that high."
...and then some will say that the ace count is not high because the men return much better... and they will be right of course.
If your way to promote the WTA is trying to convince people that the women play as good as the men, you can only lose. It's better that you try to convince people that the game is interesting, compelling, exciting, etc. within their own level of performance (which are all perfectly legitimate points). But pretending that the women can play at a level that is remotely comparable with the men's will only undermine your point.
For some, the level of performance is not so important, and they like to watch two women battling it out on their own similar weapons. That's fine with me (i.e. perfectly legitimate), although it is certainly not my case. Sometimes an even battle between two weak combatants can be more interesting than a somewhat more lopsided battle between two huge tennis weapons (male of course).
I like the ATP because that's where I find the highest level of performance, full stop. You will not hear me bashing the WTA here (in fact in this post I am making fair points in its favor), but I am not so interested, and nothing you can say along the lines of "women play as good as men" or, even worse, along the lines of "men play as poor as women" will ever convince me. And I guess other people are like me.
I fully respect your efforts to promote the WTA, but I humbly think other strategies would be better.
For instance, about a month ago, I think it was Samantha Elin said something like "in this WTA match there have been more aces than in those other ATP matches, so it means that the women can also serve very well!". Several posters immediately answered to that fallacy, but the most succint and clear one was posted by Andrew (I think), saying something like "So women can't put a racket on a 100 mph serve. And your point was?"
Sometimes it is better not to defend the WTA (or anything in general) with the wrong reasons, because you will obtain the opposite effect you expect.
And honestly, I see almost no bashing of the WTA here, but I do find repetitive promoting of it a bit tiring, specially because it is typically by means of fallacies like the above, and most of the times you have to overcome the temptation to answer to them, because you know you shouldn't dedicate time to that; but overcoming the temptation also takes will resources.
Summarizing: for me it is clear that men play tennis at a level that is light-years above women (wasn't there a match between the 500th man and the 1st woman in which he kind of bagelled her?). It is legitimate to consider that fact unimportant for the entertainment. But don't try to convince us it is not true. Be careful what San Diego stats you present and how you analyze them, because that may well undermine the points you want to make.
P.S. One of the best, neatest and most effective praises of the WTA I have read here was posted by Master Ace. He just said "If you like tennis, you like the WTA". That has encouraged me to watch more WTA matches than any stat trying to prove that men play as poorly as women. Let me try another one: with my own tennis level, I can probably improve my game more by watching the girls than the boys (which is prolly true --it just doesn't work for me).

Posted by Master Ace 08/05/2010 at 10:57 AM

Sherlock,
Correct on Ashe winning Wimbledon in 1975 against Connors.

Posted by Kwaku 08/05/2010 at 11:07 AM

JK,
"I wish the media would put this spin on it, rather than speaking about how weak the women's serve is."
I honestly don't read much media speaking about how weak the women's serve is, but in any case there is a very simple stat about it: mph.
Together with % first in, % second in, and double faults, that basically makes it.
Yes, you also have the placement, the spin, the variety, etc. but the above are the main stats.
Certainly much, much more significant and unequivocal about the quality of their serves than anything connected with aces, % points won, break points, (which often happen after an exchange), etc., because these also involve the quality of the return, which is much poorer.
So I wouldn't waste efforts in the kind of stats you presented above unless you have some objective stat to independently evaluate the quality of the returns (and you don't).

Posted by jewell - Make tea, not war. 08/05/2010 at 11:12 AM

Steve had a good post last year sometime about WTA serving. Forget when exactly but I liked it.

Posted by Jamaica Karen (WTA Rules) 08/05/2010 at 11:14 AM

Kwaku, I have read your analysis of my points and respond as follows.

I am by no means comparing the men's game to that of the women. That is something that will never happen from my side because there is no comparison. It is 2 totally different levels of competition. The point I was trying to make is that while many commentators deride the women's game as being filled with double faults, breaks of serve, inconsistencies during a match and mental lapses on the women's side, the same can be said of the men.

I am however hurt that you should think that my constant promoting of the WTA is as you say "tiring". Really, is it? I find it tiring when I come here and all I can read about is Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray etc. 90% of the posts done by the lead blogger and his staff is about men's tennis. It was only after many requests that we finally got someone who writes about women's tennis.

In addition, on the rare occassions that Pete and others write about the WTA, it is usually to malign a player or cast aspersions on their looks, their level of fitness, their mental breakdowns etc. Even a post which praised Serena's serve at this year's Wimbledon, had to find a negative. For that reason, and that reason alone I champion the cause of women's tennis.

Every time there is a combined tennis event, the women's event gets shafted and put to pasture. Washington and San Diego are now on. Guess which event gets the most coverage? Washington. Women's tennis has been put on the back burner and I as a fan feel the need to ensure that it does not stay there.

Posted by Kwaku 08/05/2010 at 11:14 AM

Let me try another legitimate praise of the WTA: I have often said that I don't consider the serve to be the most important shot in tennis (I may be wrong, but I will have to be convinced about it). And in any case I don't/wouldn't like it to be (I did not like aces to be so important like in the Sampras era).
Well, in that sense the WTA shows more "tennis" (exchanges) and less ace feasts.
That, again, is true --it just doesn't work for me because, after all, I like to admire the maximum level of performance that I can find, even if it comes at the cost of a few more ace feasts.

Posted by Master Ace 08/05/2010 at 11:15 AM

Kwaku,
Good point on making each tour compelling through their own competiton instead of comparing which we can all be at fault for that. On Jamaica Karen comparision on ATP and WTA on serving, I think her point was that the WTA get constantly critcized for having lots of UFEs, DFs and service games lost but the ATP does not get that same criticism. In Sam's match against Rainer in LA, their last 4 games of the match was service breaks but it was not talked about. As far as stats are concerned, the ATP have more information on some key components of the game unlike my beloved WTA.

Posted by manuelsantanafan 08/05/2010 at 11:20 AM

Speaking of potential doubles pairings, I posit that if Oudin and JJ ever become doubles partners, the greatest dispersion of vitriol in human history will ensue.

When Connors and Ashe met in the 1975 Wimbledon finals, Connors' suit against the ATP (and Ashe, as ATP's president) was still ongoing. I believe I read (while TTC was replaying that match recently), that, shortly after that 1975 match, Connors dropped the suit and his manager/promoter, Mike Riordan, who had a large role in pushing that suit. (Don't know that much about Riordan, but believe Connors did very well financially by Riordan in some of those exhibitions/challenge matches (involving Laver, Newcombe, Orantes, etc.) arranged by Riordan.)

Posted by robbyfan 08/05/2010 at 11:24 AM

And in other breaking news-Fed has an accent!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r00QND7e8Dg

Posted by Kwaku 08/05/2010 at 11:26 AM

JK,
I would have sworn you were comparing the men's game to that of the women. That seemed to me the whole point of your stats. I promise to read them again later with different eyes.
But now I want to give a more urgent response just to say sorry I hurt you. People find different things tiring and it's not such big issue; I do find that just a bit tiring (I said "a bit" from the beginning --not that I am fed up with it at all). Sorry, I'll try not to get tired ;-) (And it has to do with defending the WTA itself, as an entity, as opposed to talking about specific WTA matches and players... or maybe it has to do with the comparison with the ATP... I would prolly be happier reading about how exciting the girls's game is if it didn't come mixed with how poor the boy's game is).
In any case, take the positives from my posts: a) I find a passion for the WTA perfectly legitimate (it just doesn't work like that FOR ME); b) I suggest what I think would be better strategies to promote it; c) I even gave you three examples of more compelling proposals (one by Master Ace, two by me). If you want I can tell you why the "If you like tennis, you like the WTA" worked so well for me.
Finally, your last post helps me understand why you feel compelled to post what you post. I understand better how you feel about the wta not being so cherished in other aspects (like match scheduling) not directly related with wta bashing here (which I don't see much).

Posted by Jamaica Karen (WTA Rules) 08/05/2010 at 11:32 AM

Kwaku, I like tennis. I really do. It was women's tennis that drew me to the sport in the 1990s moreso than the men. What I find disheartening is that commentators have all jumped on the bandwagon of deriding the WTA as an entity without realising the consequences of those actions.

FWIW, I enjoy watching both men's and women's tennis and even though you may think my constant writing of the WTA is a "bit tiring", I not only find it tiring but a lot tiring when I have to come here and constantly read the bashing of the WTA by many posters here. There are a few players who do bring the sport into disrepute but that is not the WTA as a whole.

As for being hurt, I will have to hold on to that one for awhile but apology, if indeed what your 11:26 post was is accepted.

Anyway, off to some work and mend my hurt feelings on the WTA.

Posted by CL/Hold the Foam 08/05/2010 at 11:33 AM

I think 'The Poster Who Shall Not Be Named Who isn't Tim' writes and comprehends English very well except when it suits her not to.

Posted by Kwaku 08/05/2010 at 11:42 AM

MA, JK,
I am known to be a big fan of Rafa (although I love to watch other players too).
Well, in a sense Rafa plays more WTA-like: more breaks (especially of his own ;-) and a less "abusing" serve. With him you actually see points develop (and even "point construction", if such thing exists.)
Of course his typically low UFE count makes a difference, but still.
So that's why I have never really taken seriously many of the criticisms made to the WTA, specially those connected with the serve.
Partly because I never thought these criticisms had much merit, and partly because I'm not interested in the WTA nearly as much as in the ATP, I never felt the pain of the wta being bashed. Furthermore, if I had, I would've prolly come out in its defence (like I try to defend JJ and other women when I feel they are unfairly attacked even if I don't follow them so much).
I have also posted here the delight I felt watching the RG final for instance.
So I don't consider I am a WTA basher at all.
Just not that interested, which is prolly my bad (or my lack of time for everything: I already "waste" too much in the ATP).
And thinking that the level of men's tennis is not comparable to the level of women's tennis is of course just normal, no bashing in that at all.

Posted by Mr. and Mrs. D. 08/05/2010 at 11:48 AM

MA @9:50...I agree, Srebotnik was playing extremely well tail end of 2008...nothing like an injury to stop short any positive momentum.:( Like you, I also believe she was very wise in choosing her new doubles partner. (I'm sure she and Hantuchova both miss Ai Sugiyama this season.)

Posted by Kwaku 08/05/2010 at 11:49 AM

JK,
"constantly read the bashing of the WTA by many posters here"
I honestly think that is not true.

Posted by Annie (Vamos Heavenly Creature) 08/05/2010 at 11:51 AM

Here's the TV schedule for the USOpen Series. Toronto isn't getting as much love from espn as I'd like. Fortunately I have tennistv. Robbie and Jason are back! I love Masters 1000's.

http://www.usopenseries.com/TVSchedule/

Wilson, your review of espn's Open coverage from a few hours ago was spot on and very funny.

Posted by CL/Hold the Foam 08/05/2010 at 11:52 AM

robby fan - thanks for that vid. Diss, dems, dos and dats...jeejee

'th' sound very tough for some non native English speakers...Fed gets it about half right because of his mother's English.

Posted by Sherlock 08/05/2010 at 11:52 AM

"Speaking of potential doubles pairings, I posit that if Oudin and JJ ever become doubles partners, the greatest dispersion of vitriol in human history will ensue."

Lol, MSF. Well done. :)

CL, he he. Indeed. :)

Good to see Jacoby back last night. Pity about the 0-4. But Shaq in green is great news, eh? Hope they start making those jerseys now. It may take a while. :)

Posted by Master Ace 08/05/2010 at 11:54 AM

Mr. and Mrs. D.,
Yes, Ai is indeed missed by both Katarina and Daniela. Until Ai retired, I believe she was the current leader in playing Slams without missing one. Now, that belongs to Francesca and Jill at 39(if that number is correct).

Posted by robbyfan 08/05/2010 at 11:54 AM

I don't believe there is constant bashing of the WTA but rather individual players. And frankly there is a lot of ATP male player bashing as well. Isn't that what a blog is partially about, ripping apart fan's fave players???? It would be a boring blog if we didn't have confrontations from time to time, read daily. Looking at you SamE, Sherlock, Cl, etal.

Posted by Kwaku 08/05/2010 at 11:54 AM

"I have also posted here the delight I felt watching the RG final for instance." --I meant the women's.

Posted by Master Ace 08/05/2010 at 11:55 AM

Sherlock,
What is it about the NBA coming like MLB on the haves and have nots?

Posted by Sandra 08/05/2010 at 12:01 PM

SamE, may I just say how much I appreciate you and your point of view? You hold your own so well. Always interesting to read your posts, whether or not I agree with your POV.

Posted by Heather 08/05/2010 at 12:03 PM

Tennis is really on tv tonight, I think we should write this day down.....because apparently cattle pulling is more important to the likes of ESPN...thanks goodness for the tennis channel tonight!

What's funny is in PMac's book he talks about how much ESPN is pro-tennis!

Posted by Annie (Vamos Heavenly Creature) 08/05/2010 at 12:04 PM

sisu! I just saw your post to wilson :) - great minds and all that...

JK, I feel I must agree with Kwaku in regards to your assertion that we do a lot of WTA bashing around here. I don't see it either. For instance, if someone makes a note of the empty seats at a WTA match, that's not bashing, it's just an observation. Similar
observations were made about the Murray/Querry final on Sunday. For me, I just prefer the men's game but all power to those that love the women's game. I used to follow Martina N. religiously so I don't know if it's the womens game that has changed for me or the personalities playing that I don't find as compelling.

one more thing about the espn coverage: Is Kim Clijsters still coming back? And are we going to hear about her being a mommy every time her name is mentioned?

Posted by Mr. and Mrs. D. 08/05/2010 at 12:04 PM

Re the RG wta final: enjoyed it, but a rather odd experience for me. Not a particular fan of either but was very pleased both made it to a first GS final....didn't want to see one lose.

Posted by jewell - Make tea, not war. 08/05/2010 at 12:05 PM

What is cattle pulling? *intrigued*

Posted by Sherlock 08/05/2010 at 12:06 PM

Whew. Great question there, MA. Can't say it's a trend I'm very excited about. Given good health, how many teams really have a shot at the title next year? Lakers, Heat, Celts, and maybe Bulls, Magic, or Thunder?

Posted by manuelsantanafan 08/05/2010 at 12:06 PM

I'll be very interested in seeing to what extent Shaq is useful to the Celtics defense.

The last few years, the Celtics have prided themselves on defense.

With Thibodeau(?) gone and Garnett on the downside of his career, Mr. Camp out under the basket Shaqtus may very well become a defensive liability that the Celtics are not able to overcome.

Posted by Heather 08/05/2010 at 12:07 PM

Jewell, I'm not really sure, haha...I think I may have embellished just a little...

Posted by Lynne (Rafalite) 08/05/2010 at 12:08 PM

Hi everyone: I enjoy the WTA and the ATP and don't think that I ever compare them. In an ideal world we would have an equal choice of which matches to watch. I have to say that if, say John Isner and Andy Roddick were playing at the same time as JJ and Kim and I had a choice, then I would watch JJ and Kim simply because I like those two players. Nothing against Isner or Roddick, I like them too, but probably because I wouldn't want to watch a "serve fest."

Posted by Annie (Vamos Heavenly Creature) 08/05/2010 at 12:09 PM

Jewell: I think Heather is making reference to the bizarre endeavors that espn shows us as "sport" instead of live tennis - or any tennis. Yesterday, when we could have been watching legg mason, we were shown poker! Is there really such a thing as cattle pulling?

Posted by jewell - Make tea, not war. 08/05/2010 at 12:09 PM

LOL LOL LOL Heather. I thought it was an actual sport!

Mind, I'd probably watch it if it was. I watch sheepdog trials, after all. :)

Posted by jewell - Make tea, not war. 08/05/2010 at 12:11 PM

Hi Annie! :) I remember people complaining at some point about having to watch fishing, too.

Posted by Heather 08/05/2010 at 12:11 PM

Too funny, Jewell! It very well could be a sport though, I was just exaggerating a bit. :)

Posted by Mr. and Mrs. D. 08/05/2010 at 12:16 PM

Sandra.....imagine how successful some wta players would be if they were as consistent as SamE!:).....as far as 'You hold your own so well', back in the day, my school debate team coach would have used her as an example of how not to argue a point (truth be told, he had no use for me either!)

(JKaren...that isn't a shot at the wta...I just don't follow the atp as much.)

Posted by Annie (Vamos Heavenly Creature) 08/05/2010 at 12:17 PM

JK, i think you'll be pleased to see on the tv schedule I posted that from 8/12 to 8/15, the vast majority of coverage by espn will be on the women in Cincy. The Rogers Masters is only getting 2 hours a day!

Posted by wilson75 08/05/2010 at 12:17 PM

Heather: To quote PMac's brother -"You're cannot be serious!" Has ESPN ever been pro-tennis? Not for all the years I've been watching.

Annie: Thanks for the compliment, but honestly I can't wait for the USO to start but I could do without ESPN covering it. I'm preparing myself to be irritated by them while I'm watching.

Posted by Sandra 08/05/2010 at 12:18 PM

JKaren, also love your POV. I also came to tennis through watching WTA and prefer women's tennis to men's most of the time (too much acing and first strike stuff and not enough tennis played sometimes). I've been on this site since it started, and I've seen plenty of WTA bashing, often just for its own sake (just so the women remember their place - there's tennis and then there's "women's tennis). I watch a lot of tennis and I have been stating to my friends that I see just as many breaks of serve in men's tennis as in women's tennis (especially given that the vast majority of sets/matches are won on service breaks, rather than on tie-breakers), but that fact seems to go unnoticed (or not commented on) in the men's game. Whereas when the women do it, it's open season on them. I wonder sometimes whether this is because tennis is one of the few sports in which the women's game is as, or nearly as, or has been at sometimes in the past more, prominent/popular than the men's game? And I wonder if sometimes it's a reaction to, in some places, a belief among male sportfans that tennis is a "wuss" game, so the commies (most of whom are former tennis players) feel bound to defend the men's game (and one way to do that is to try to show the men as being so vastly superior to the women)? I also think the women concentrate even more on their return game, because they're never (at least not with the current equipment technology) going to start serving like Andy Roddick, so there's more benefit to be had from practising your return game than from trying to serve in the 130's.

Posted by Master Ace 08/05/2010 at 12:18 PM

"What's funny is in PMac's book he talks about how much ESPN is pro-tennis!"

Heather,
That is funny.

Jewell and Heather,
ESPN2 does show some rodeo shows from time to time where a person is riding a bull for a few seconds before getting off and running to safety when tennis is played live somewhere.

Posted by robbyfan 08/05/2010 at 12:21 PM

Speaking of fishing! Atlanta is hosting a fishing tourney this week at one of our lakes, Lake Lanier, where the first prize for biggest fish caught (I presume) is $500,000!!!

Makes me want to go and cast a line. And this "Sport" will be broadcast on ESPN no doubt.

Posted by Heather 08/05/2010 at 12:22 PM

Wilson75: Seriously, haha! I enjoyed the book a lot actually but that part was a bit ridiculous considering tennis takes a back seat to pretty much everything at ESPN. Although I will give them (ESPN) credit for not cutting away last weekend during their coverage from LA.

Posted by Annie (Vamos Heavenly Creature) 08/05/2010 at 12:22 PM

Jewell: that's weird about nole and rafa playing dubs in toronto. I thought he was playing with his lil'buddy and if fact said so on his facebook page. *off to look*

Posted by CL/Hold the Foam 08/05/2010 at 12:23 PM

Sherlock - You are KIDDING!!! I am slow off the mark today - hadn't heard about Shaq.

Yeah...too bad about Jacoby, but that whole game was just one ugly disaster, so it was kinda fitting. Better luck tonight!

Posted by Mr. and Mrs. D. 08/05/2010 at 12:24 PM

Watching Chakvetadze (sp?) take first set....hoping she gets her game back soon. Her big dip in the rankings wasn't as publicized as Ana/Dinara's, but to drop as far down from #5 as she has is quite sad.

Posted by Heather 08/05/2010 at 12:25 PM

CL--It's about time Jacoby was at least taken off of the DL, all of the Jacoby drama was too much for me.

Posted by Sandra 08/05/2010 at 12:26 PM

SamE has a POV and sticks to it. I love the fact that she doesn't try to be a people-pleaser and back off her opinions just because someone disagrees with her (which I sometimes do). Whether or not she's right in her opinion or in arguing/sticking to it as she does, is also an opinion (and we all have one of those, just like a few other things I can think of!).

Posted by wilson75 08/05/2010 at 12:27 PM

Heather: yeah, I still remember the days when they would cut their coverage regardless they were in the match to show rodeo or some other minor sport on tape. But I guess, they can't do that anymore because they are competing with the internet for viewers.

Posted by Mr. and Mrs. D. 08/05/2010 at 12:28 PM

"I thought he was playing with his lil'buddy"

Thank you, Annie, Marc Lopez will now always be 'Gilligan' to me!:)

Posted by Master Ace 08/05/2010 at 12:28 PM

Mr. and Mrs. D,
Good point about Anna C decline in the rankings. As you know, she and Svetlana played a horrible USO SF in 2007 then in that offseason, Anna C and her family was robbed. What happened in 2008 & 2009 is a complete mystery to me. I believe Anna C was at .500 since the start of 2008 before she played and won Portoroz.

CL,
Yes, Shaq is at the Celtics trying to equal Kobe in rings won(Kobe 5 Shaq 4).

Annie,
It is true that Rafael and Novak is playing doubles.

Posted by Annie (Vamos Heavenly Creature) 08/05/2010 at 12:30 PM

Jewell: rafa's website just says he's been practicing with Marc! nothing about them playing together so yippee it must be true about rafa and nole. what a hoot! that's going to be fun! I wonder if we'll get to see any of it though considering dubs is completely ignored by the networks.

Posted by jewell - Make tea, not war. 08/05/2010 at 12:34 PM

It's been confirmed by Rogers Cup, I think. I'll settle for a few minutes on Youtube, coverage-wise. :)

Is Tennis Channel going to have any USO coverage this year? - I remember they archived some matches last year which was very useful for me. :)

Posted by tina 08/05/2010 at 12:36 PM

"Annie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans"

Sblily - it is often said that the Balkans begin at the south side of the Hotel Esplanade in Zagreb, and I would tend to agree with that. Slovenia is in Europe, both officially and by this definition. (It was probably a Slovene who came up with the definition, though.)

Speaking of - did World Cup cure everyone of their Slovenia/Slovakia confusion?

Well, I am glad to see that Janko reversed his Los Angeles result against Querrey.

Okay, I'm going for a swim

Posted by robbyfan 08/05/2010 at 12:36 PM

I thought there was really bad blood between Rafa and Nole from the impressions. And they are playing doubles? They wouldn't attack each other on court would they, ala, tennis roller derby???? That is almost as wild as Rafa and Soderling playing dubs.

And why would Rafa play doubles on his tender knees?

And where the heck is Tim and Aussie Marge? It is a new day and time to start new discussion on the knees crisis.

Posted by Annie (Vamos Heavenly Creature) 08/05/2010 at 12:36 PM

Mr.& Mrs.D: lol, he is a little gilliganesque, dont you think? I was telling Wilson75 yesterday that every time I type his name (her?) I hear Tom Hanks from "Castaway." hmm, i'm seeing a pattern here..

Posted by jewell - Make tea, not war. 08/05/2010 at 12:41 PM

I guess doubles is to sharpen himself up after longish time away & with the surface change, plus, I see it as good news for the knees - they must be fine if he's going to play doubles, right? :)

Think Rafa and Nole are friends; always very warm and bromancey after matches; plus haven't they been seen watching football together - I think in Madrid this year.

Posted by Ike 08/05/2010 at 12:42 PM

Top 200 talent top 5 consistency (always loses): James Blake.

Posted by Annie (Vamos Heavenly Creature) 08/05/2010 at 12:43 PM

robbyfan: seriously? Nole and Rafa are actually great friends. they share the same PR guy too. No bad blood there. Oh you mean from the impressions? that's ancient history and anyway, the last time Nole did them at the endless urging of the woman in Rome, rafa laughed and was a good sport about it.

Playing dubs is barely a workout for rafa. He puts more stress on his knees in a regular practice. And AM doesn't want to hear any mention of rafa's knees. she posted that yesterday. It's the middle of the night in Oz. AM has to sleep some time. Please note that no one has been discussing rafa's knees other than to give updates on his treatments. It's usually someone such a yourself who mentions them first.

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