Pete.

Hmm Cup Cake draws? by the way I dont like that photo of my boy at all

Just saying.

Off to read the post in depth.

Pete- lol. You must have been reading RF.com and the Vamos Brigade. Yup, Fed is a cooked goose - tired, old and blowing MPs. And of course Rafa can't possibly be expected to win indoor late in the season, 'cause you know..he never HAS. And besides how IS that shoulder? And those knees. Rest? Don't talk to me about rest..he'll be rusty...and so what if he can afford one loss..its ......

Gee, I wonder who WILL win?

Go the Ninth Man!

I would still love to know court speed/bounce in London. Same as last year? Or have they tweaked it? I guess we won't really know until the players get to hit a few balls on the court.

Who IS the 9th man at the WTF this year anyway? Remember the year Steps had to step up at the last minute and ended playing in and with borrowed everything?

LOL, Pete

Of course, FED fans should also be quick to point out that it is called "Round ROBIN" play ...

AM, at least the pic of Roger isn't much better

Colette Indeed.They both look like they are going to have "break downs"

I wonder if those photos are a sign of something sinister to happen in London?

I am with CL the nineth man to win

By the way who is the sub in London

Sorry I am still planning the wedding.

London Order of Play:

Sunday
Bob Bryan and Mike Bryan vs Jurgen Melzer and Philipp Petzschner at 7:15 AM
Robin Soderling(56-20; 5-7) vs Andy Murray(44-16; 5-3) at 9 AM
Lukas Dlouhy and Leander Paes vs Mariusz Fyrstenberg and Marcin Matkowski at 1:15 PM
Roger Federer(60-13; 11-6) vs David Ferrer(60-21; 7-11) at 3 PM

Monday
Mahesh Bhupathi and Max Mirnyi vs Lukas Kubot and Oliver Marach at 7:15 AM
Novak Djokovic(57-16; 2-6) vs Tomas Berdych(44-24; 5-8) at 9 AM
Daniel Nestor and Nenad Zimonjic vs Wesley Moodie and Dick Norman at 1:15 PM
Rafael Nadal(67-9; 7-4) vs Andy Roddick(48-15; 4-2) at 3 PM

Ok, first I would like to say that it is a coincidence that my initials are the same as the first three letters in my boy's name.

That being said, I am a diehard Rafa fan and I don't think I would say anything about Federer that the hypothetical "Nadal fan" said. I think what's most refreshing about a draw like this is that both groups are REALLY REALLY tough. We're talking about the best players in the world here people.

It's not so much that Nadal got a tough draw, which he did, it's that they BOTH got tough draws. That makes the playing field more even. I'm so sick of all these big tournaments where Roger gets a bye and a wildcard and then his opponent retires just to coast through early rounds with double the amount of fuel in the tank than the rest of them. (I realize that this is a differently formatted tournament, but I'm just saying.)

Novak, Tomas and Andy are all dangerous players for different reasons against Nadal. And to brush off Andy because he's been struggling this year would be silly. He's still in the top ten. His record outside of Grand Slams is still great and he's known for his prowess on fast hard courts.

Robin, Andy M and David are also volatile players who have the skills to beat it if they can maintain their focus equally as long as Roger maintains his cool.

Conclusion: Rafa's fans are not so terribly whiny. I like health, fair competition.

Should be fun to watch.

Pete,
LOL on the title and describing the fans of Nadal and Federer.

Welcome Raf to TW

Good post thank you

Afternoon, all.

The first point to make about the draw is that Djokovic and Murray are in different groups. With Soderling winning in Bercy, and Murray going out at the QF stage, Soderling moved into the 4 spot, Murray to 5. I think a group which had Nadal/Djokovic/Murray or Federer/Djokovic/Murray would have had the "Group of Death" label.

I genuinely think the two groups are balanced. If you look at it from a Fedal perspective (gee, that's a first, Andrew), then taking Nadal's group first, Djokovic is a tough out (though I think Pete's right about the DC: if Djokovic suffers early losses, he may check out - but early wins and he'll be going for it). Berdych is on fumes, but Roddick isn't.

In Federer's group, Federer's H2H vs Soderling (and Ferrer) is quite good, and the H2H vs Murray is tilted towards the Scot. As a Federer fan, I might have preferred Djokovic and Berdych, purely on the matchups - but Federer himself was probably fairly indifferent.

To be honest, I don't see a single gimme. I'd be very surprised if Federer lost to Ferrer, or Nadal lost to Berdych. But I was quite taken aback that Federer lost to Monfils.

LOL! Good one, Pete. Call out the Fedal war before it even starts! This was going to be a no-win situation no matter how it went. I guess the good news is that Djoker and Murray did not end up in the same group. If that had happened, we never would have heard the end of it from the fans of the poor guy (Fed or Nadal) who might have gotten both. Anyway, it's probably as balanced as it could have been, I guess.

Djoker/Soderling - on paper, Djoker is the tougher opponent, but considering the 'high' Soderling is probably on after Paris and Djoker maybe thinking about DC... AD to Fed.

Murray/Berdych - I don't think there's any doubt that Murray is the tougher opponent here. Sure, if Wimbledon-Berdych (pre-final) shows up, then he might be tough, but somehow I doubt it. Big AD to Nadal.

Ferrer/Roddick. On paper, Roddick would be considered the tougher opponent. Ferrer is a fighter, but he really doesn't own a weapon to trouble Fed or Nadal, if they are playing well. But considering Roddick hasn't exactly been great recently... who knows? AD? I'm thinking Fed and Nadal can get by both these guys.

Thanks Andrew

Being a Rafa fan and not whiney at all? lol!

I think the 2 groups are balanced.I see the point Pete was making in regards to Novak and the DC final.I was disappointed in him at Bercy quite frankly.Roddick will be tough and the few matches I watched him play in Bercy his serve was working a treat.Well Tomas needs to get himself together after Bercy.

I also dont see any game a gimme either in either group.

Raf wrote: "I'm so sick of all these big tournaments where Roger gets a bye and a wildcard and then his opponent retires just to coast through early rounds with double the amount of fuel in the tank than the rest of them."

Spoken like a true Rafa fan. You make it sound like Nadal never has draws open up for him either. What about this year's 2010 clay season, for example? He faced only 1 Top Ten player in all three clay TMS!! Or what about his USO draw? QF against Lopez and semi against Youznhy? Yeah, that's real tough.

Seems to me that both Fed and Nadal have had the benefit of easy draws over the years.

" I'm so sick of all these big tournaments where Roger gets a bye and a wildcard and then his opponent retires just to coast through early rounds with double the amount of fuel in the tank than the rest of them. (I realize that this is a differently formatted tournament, but I'm just saying.)"

raf: What are you saying? At the big events, the top seeds get byes. As top seeds, Rafa and Roger sometimes gets a WC or qualifier. It's called the luck of draw. Cincinnati is not the norm. But welcome to TW nevetheless.

A draw is a draw

Cup Cake or not.Actually I hate that term

A draw is on paper only when we look at it

Different story when the actual play in a tournament begins.

AM: You're totally right. I think both draws are evenly balanced and at this tournament especially, H2H goes out the window.

Pete, your send up of the one-eyed fans is spot on. But you might as well talk to a fence post than persuade these fanatics that draws aren't rigged, that 'their' player isn't getting a raw deal while the 'opposition' has a walk in the park. We can see they're at it already.

People will twist facts to suit their subjective prejudices in all areas, especially politics - without this basic human behaviour we wouldn't have Fedal wars.

A funny take from both Fedfan and Nadalfan perspectives, Pete.

Hmmm...still no answer on the 9th man alternate. Master Ace? Andrew? Anyone? Bueller?

Also, do we have to 'credit' Tim with coining 'Cupcake" re draws? Or did it pre-date his happy overuse of the term?

Corrie - but remember, 'in the land of people with cupcakes in the eye, the one eyed man is king.' Or something like that. :-)

CL: It's supposed to be Verdasco but alternates haven't been announced yet.

Pete,
lol. So, you're not interested in being a Fedal war correspondent?
;-)

Dave

wilson - thanks. Verdasco made it last year..into the top eight, right? I remember he gave Roger a very tough match, early on. No Swiss minion, he!! ;-)))

Well I hope Verdasco hasnt gone off with his good friend Feli to some exotic beach resort somewhere then.

CL,
I have been looking for the alternates for a while but no luck. When the WTA played, you knew who was the alternates for singles.

opps, Rafa's only real chance of win at YEC, Ferrer, has landed on old man's side. Hmmm....

Let me see. Rafa-Roddick. Lose! Rafa can't handle laser fast serves on fast indoor court.
Rafa-Djoker. Lose! Djoker seems to toy with Rafa on fast indoor courts.
Rafa-Berdie. Maybe win, if Berdie plays like a crap like he has since post wimby.

Fed, on the other hand, will at least have two wins over Ferrer and Evil Sod. oy.

CL: Yes, he was in the top 8 and lost all 3 matches. He didn't look to happy about it in the end but he did get $120,000 for his troubles.

Federer has an aggregate record of 29-9 against his three round-robin opponents, with a whopping eight of those losses logged against Murray. He's a combined 24-1 against Ferrer and Soderling (and a perfect 10-0 against Ferrer).

Nadal is 28-13, combined. He's lost at least three matches against every one of his group rivals, and the most (7) against Djokovic.

Draw your own conclusions.

My conclusion? Rafa should beat Thomas ¨can't win 2 matches in a row¨ Berdych. And Federer should beat David ¨I can't beat roger¨ Ferrer

The rest, we should wait and see.

MA - maybe they can't find any 'volunteers' lol. Probably not a lot of guys want to hang around London in the cold and damp when they could be starting their holidays some where warm, like Aussiemarge said.

So, in a situation like Davydenko and Del Potro (who were last years finalists) but did not make the WTF this year... do they just lose all their points from last year, or can they count points from another tournament in its place? I mean, that's alot of points to drop.

Alexis - not sure about DavyD, but doesn't the Ent have a protected ranking for a while longer?

MA: According to the standings the alternates are supposed to be Verdasco and Youzhny as they are 9 and 10. But Youzhny has back problems and I'm not sure if Verdasco would want go to London to do nothing except be the other players hitting partner. I think the ATP are still trying to sort who will be alternates and that's why they haven't announced them yet.

well still things could have been worse (or better depends on how you look at it) for either Fed or Rafa. One of them could have easily have both Djoker and Muzz. Instead each got either Djoker+Roddick and Evil Sod+Muzz.

I smell something fishy going on. I demand investigation on possible rigging of the draw to avoid grouping best 3 out of 4 players into the same group. ATP, I am looking at you.

Agree Diana. Fed should beat Ferrer and Nadal should beat Berdych. The other ones are tougher to call, because anything can happen in a Best-of-3. All in all, the groups are probably about as fair as they could be. So honestly, I don't see much of a FEDAL war here.

Alexis: Both Davydenko and Del Potro's WTF dropped off with the rest of players who were there last year. Hence Del Porto only has his QF points for this year's AO and has dropped to 259 while Davydenko is now @ 22.

BTW, Rafa is only playing his 4th time this year after missing 2 times, and he has Djoker at least 3 times! Whenever both played they've always landed on the same group.

Never had Muzz. Meanwhile Fed has Muzz again after having him at least 2 times as well. This is Muzz's 3rd apearance and yet he've always landed on Fed's side.

Rigging? anyone? I tell you. There is something going with these sinister ATP drawing system. ha ha.

Pete, very funny :-)
But I think the groups are quite well balanced. The problem for Nadal is not the groups, but the venue.

Well. Rafa and Nole are 1-1 in their YEC H2H.
As are Fed and Murray.

So it is rigging.

Also haha.

I'm so upset! I have tickets for Friday and it is Rafa's RR day, not Roger's.

Now Roger REALLY have to make it to the semis!

Hopefully, I'll get to see Djoko-Roddick. That would make me happy. All matches are good, but I hoped getting on the flight KNOWING I'd get to see Roger, at least once.

BTW, Evil Sod can rise as high as n.3 after the YEC??? only 300 points seperates him and Djoker. Geez. I laughed hard when Borg said that Evil Sod will be n. 1, but this is getting a bit serious. Stop it, Evil Sod. That's enough. I am sure old man will keep beating him at majors to stop him from rising further, but this is no good since it means either Fed or Rafa will get Muzz at QF again at a slam. Especially bad for Rafa.

Well, whatever group Murray didn't end up in was always going to be the cupcake group, and probably rightfully so, as he has good h2h against both Rafa and Roger on HC, unlike the rest of the group. Roger's matches against him at the WTF were always going to be very difficult, and I'd be surprised if this year is any exception.

The rest of pretty even out. Soderling is most on-form, and in spite of his good h2h vs. Roger, he can also explode on a given day, same for Birdy, but he's NOT on form.

I'm pleased Soderling-Murray are going up first. I think that's a key match to the entire group.

Lol at the cupcake draws and not a minion in sight. *wrings hands*

Alexis,
Unfortunately, Davydenko(22 now) and Del Potro(259) lose all their points.

CL,
Yes, Del Potro does have a protected ranking to enter some tournaments without qualifying.

well as for the alternatives, Melzer got to be one of the two. He's there for the double anyway, so he's got it. As someone said here earlier, Youz will probably not be there due to back injury. The only plausible next guy is baldy Ljubicic. The ancient man can use some extra cash. After him, maybe Gulbis, who is n.24. None of French guys will be there since they have to prepare for Davis cup.

Dasco is no alternate?

Old man fed: It is also means that if Soderling remains at No.4 or goes up to No. 3 at the time of RG, he likely would have to beat Roger or Rafa in the SF to make it back to the finals.

Lynne Passing you a "hand towel"

Old man fed: We don't know if Verdasco has turned down the offer to be the first alternate. We have to wait and see but unofficially it's Verdasco and Youzhny. More than likely Melzer will be the second alternate due to Youzhny's back problems.

wilson75, that's true, but remember he did beat either Fed or Rafa past 2 years at Frenchie to reach final there. Also if he knows what's good for him, he will finally win a match at AO next year and build enough point cushion there.

Dasco said he didn't want to go as an alternate. Melzer could be the alternate, because he will be there for the doubles.

Hmmm just as I thought he is already sunning himself on a beach somewhere.

AM : Hope it's a souvenir type ? What a horrid picture of Rafa, whatever was Pete thing of ? Tsk, tsk.

Lynne Well the photo of Roger isnt any better? maybe this is a Sign lol!

Yes the wedding.Well I have already got Kates dress,shoes and flowers organised.Its all over our news,radio and tv here.

AM : Hope the dress will be better than Diana's dress. I was so disappointed in that and thought, as she stepped from her carriage, that it was like a Christmas tree. Loved her sapphire ring though.

I have never had any interest whatsoever in draws. Draws are boring and mean nothing. Talking about draws is as fun as attenting a mathematics class of statistics in high school was.

Lynne I have Galliano from Dior doing the dress.As long as she dosent wear a Tiara I will be happy.Havent thought about the hair give me some time though lol!

Back to the draw I feel its well balanced on both sides.

temes Hi.

Agree its all paper talk in ways and maths wasnt my best subject at all.

Old man Fed: Yeah, but however the draw turns out, I have feeling none of them are going to lose to Soderling at RG next year.

Diana: If Verdasco is not willing to be an alternate then either Cilic or Ljubicic will be the alternates. I think they were the next possible candidates since Tsonga and Fish are injured.

AM : Galliano would be good, my friends daughter works for him. Long hair is very adaptable.

I like the draw and think that it is pretty even. Nobody has a cupcake this time.

AM: I'm butting into this royal wedding discussion. Kate is going to wear a tiara, she's the future Queen of England. Re. designers I don't think Galliano is going to be the designer, although he's British he heads a French company. I think it will be somebody who works in Britain, I think Stella McCartney will be a leading candidate.

Hi AM.

This draw looks very balanced to me. Any kind of talk about cupcakes is just nitpicking, both Rafa and Fed are facing the best of this season. And whoever wins has beaten the whole draw anyway... I just don't get these draw wars at all. lol

wilson75 Hmmmm a Tiara I guess you are right

Ok I think the hair should be up

I did have Stella as my 3rd pick.Also I love Alexander MacQueen though he is dead.His label is still going.

I hope the Queen will be generous she is known to be tight with money lol!

"Will that be vanilla or chocolate icing on that cupcake?"

At least we know the answer to this one, since chocolate is becoming an endangered species.

I would dress her in a sequined turban.

temes Draw Wars are Boring I agree

Though I suppose its a new twist if you get my drift lol!

Has anyone ever been in both singles and doubles, as Melzer could be this year?

Colette -

Chocolate, obviously. ;-))

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=124305617631018&set=a.116189941775919.15971.107103769351203

Colette I am already on rations with Chocolate

Vanilla is the way to go

Temes LOL! I dont see that happening

AM: I'm sure she will spear no expense this wedding is good for her and her family's image, not to mention the country's.

wilson - NO! Anyone but stellar-less Stella! Poor Kate will end up, like Caro, looking like something off of Miss Haversham's wedding cake.

Ross: Emilio Sanchez

Yeah, I knew that both Davydenko and Del Potro would lose all their points, I just wasn't sure if players not making the YE could add points from an additional tournament - like maybe an extra 250-level event or something.

Oh AM why not...as for dress a fabulous House of Diarrhea number

http://tinyurl.com/3x48xlp

I would put money on a tiara, it's a Royal wedding. It will probably be one of the family heirlooms. What would be the alternative, I wonder. I don't trust Stella now, after seeing the Caro dresses last year.

wilson - just curious - do you post here with an encyclopedia of tennis by your elbow? ;-))

CL: Stella makes some nice clothes. I'd admit that the things she makes for Caro are hideous but Stella is modern designer and the media talk is Kate and William are a modern couple that's why I feel she might be the designer. Or they could decide to go with an unknown designer like Diana did.

Like most of you, I agree that the YE groups are about as balanced as they could be. I'm just glad that Murray and Djoker ended up being in opposite groups. And I think both Roger and Rafa got one match that many would consider an expected win: Ferrer for Roger, and Berdych for Rafa.

So, I honestly don't see why either set of fans would cry foul here.

I don't think even Tim can justify any cupcake talk today.

Temes LOL!

William could then be dressed as a Spainish Matador

Shudders!

CL: No I don't. Tennis is my favourite sport and I read alot about the game. I probably spend too much time on the ATP website.

CL I am thinking of Powder Puff Wedding Dress already with Stella

Though I must say her clothes away from tennis are great.

Though I personally would go with Galliano from Dior

Hell I wonder what Camilla Parker Bowles now married to Charles will wear

I still feel she looks best in Horsey Gear

She and Princess Anne make a nice couple I feel.

"Poor Kate will end up, like Caro, looking like something off of Miss Haversham's wedding cake."

LOL, CL With my limited exposure to designers, I can get the image of yellow undies out of my head whenever Stella is mentioned.

Perhaps Roger will build his Alp-ine vacation palace(s) with special rooms to stockpile chocolate.

Hmm ... wonder if there is some bad news being buried today, must go and check.

I love your analysis of Federer's side of the draw. It was hilarious and right on point.

I think the stars are aligned for Nadal to finally win the year end championships. Yay!

I wonder if Kates mum can sew?

I know Mama Novak is a whiz on the sewing machine

Maybe Kate can call on her.

I hope Rafa will win this year...I'm a Fed and Rafa fan in equal measures(impossible I know) but at the moment I'm rooting for Rafa to become GOAT just so I can see how Tim reacts lol.

lol :-D
laughed my heart out all through the post
damn funny post, thanks, it helps after a heavy working day

and for once Pete, you really played it neutral: impossible to guess you're a Nadal fan from this post alone :-)

temes The Swiss Legend now has the MoonPie in his shot selection

I feel he now has a winning edge even Tim has seen the light with the Moonpie though I know it can lead to voilence at times.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!

much more than good!!!!!!!!!!!

We'll see temes. One YEC does not a GOAT make.

Well Rafa isnt anywhere near the "G" discussion

like Yawn!

Well done. You laid it out perfectly.

This is WTF. There are no cupcakes, no matter what anyone else says.

(that said, sure do wish Roger had T-Berd in his group :)

wilson - well it is one thing to read this stuff and another to actually be able to call it to mind at will!
:-) I am very impressed.

I will take your word on Stella's clothes... I have never seen anything of hers I would drape over dog in a horribles parrade. But then, I have not familiar with her entire body of work. Most of what I have seen looks messy, slipshod and neither chic nor hip nor cool...nor even finished. And her (non) sense of color! Bleah.

I vote for Levi Strauss. :-)

Alexis I know bad sentence structure I didn't mean he becomes goat after winning the yec just in general.

temes - did you see JMac on the Goaty subject on the front page of Tennis.com? Should perl Tim right up if he sees it.

"I'm rooting for Rafa to become GOAT just so I can see how Tim reacts lol."

Apparently JMac is also familiar with Tim.

http://tinyurl.com/2u9k3tw

Whoops!

Colette - great minds, again.