"I think he passes Borg's record for six (though it won't be consecutive) easily."

Oh, no! Not this fallacious comparison again!

ladyjulia, you do know that Borg skipped the '77 FO for WTT, right? And Borg owned RG winner Villas that same yr, twice in fact on clay.

Now I can hear the same ol' tired response: "But it's his fault that he didn't play the FO that year!" Well, of course he didn't! That's because the FO wasn't the highest-paying tourney at the time! Players, then and now, follow the $$$. And the FO back then didn't attract the strongest field of contenders compared to Wimby and the USO; Connors, Orantes, Gerulaitis, Tanner and, of course, Borg were among the big names missing from the draw that particular yr. Again this is almost unthinkable today.

Eras should be viewed in the context of their time. It's fallacious to judge achievements from one era by by those of another. A better way here would be to, say, compare who had a more dominant season. Going by the # of FOs won alone is a fool's errand.

"I like for Magnus to keep his lovely smiling face for a while."

:) Maybe he could learn to enjoy the turbulent times of Andy Murray ... probably not though. I was very surprised to see one of the Murray team smoking outside the o2 on Thursday. Always surprised to see tennis-involved people smoke. Anyway, we wouldn't want Magnus to lose his healthy glow either, so perhaps he should just stay far away.

OK ... things to do. Later all, nice chatting.

My dearest wish is for Roger to win FO next year...maybe I'll ask Santa:))

Queeny - second that.. then we can all go on about a double career grand slam - winning each of the GSs twice, and Rafa will have to win at least 1 more AO and USO to equal that :) Prob more chance of that happening than Roger getting his 2nd FO...where's Soderling when you need him

freddy - agree abut DelPo potential. It will be interesting to see where he is when, (hopefully not 'if'), he comes back. Too bad Cilic fell so badly off the rails. He too had a lot of potential, IMO.

The other thing I keep meaning to mention that pleases me so much about Fed's post USO run is the quality of player he has defeated. He is 1-1 with Muzz, but everyone else, including the Djoker and Robin, who took some big bites out of his GS season, he handled, and handled easily.

"Actually, I thought Del Potro would have been the man this year. He's got the game to take it to Rafa, even on clay. He was scary good in the SF against Roger at FO 2009, and with his first Slam under the belt, who knows what he might have done."

and with his wrist apparently now held together with duct tape and bits of string, who knows what he might still do :(

freddy,

Del Potro would have probably taken the Fed out on clay. I don't seen him as a threat to Rafa on clay. Have they even played on clay? I don't think so.

On HC, yes...Del Potro can be threat to Rafa..but on clay, he can only take out Fed from what i have seen.

Nobody matches Rafa's movement on clay.

quite honestly, id I didnt post what i do, these fantasies about Rafa would just continue as truth, and someone has to balance out the ship a bit ...

I am not surpirsed that mama lions would think Rafa deserves perfect rest, perfect health, perfect conditoins, and perfect freedom to let his games and neuroses run wild, just funny how no other tennis players in history managed to get perfect conditoins every time they set foot on a tennis court, but with nads, it somone an outgrageous, unfair situation!

lets face it, a little reality check on this side of things is badly needed and plenty welcome reading for many non mama lions on this board ...

that is all LOL!

Ladyjulia: (Re: your question about why not an indoor Slam) As a lover of indoor tennis (elements under control and all that!), I have always wished that there were an indoor Slam. My tennis fanship grew its adult teeth on the Philly Pro-Indoors (in February) for the men and the Virginia Slims/Advanta late October/early November always indoor tourney in Philly for the women. But I've been told over and over again that to have the umpteen courts necessary availbale to conduct a Slam indoors in one area is an impossible dream.

When I win the really big lottery, I will buy a large piece of land and build the huge venue capable of hosting an indoor Slam in one location! Investors are invited to join me in this venture! LOL

Just a quick contribution on WTF - I went on Monday and Tuesday both sessions so I saw all the singles players and all the doubles teams. Some of the matches weren't great but for any tennis fan it must be one of best value experiences out there.

Not getting into R&R, except to say that they are quite other from everyone else both in their play and the electric atmosphere they create from the moment the MC does the pre-match crowd warmup.

The crowd was fantastic - every player from the Andy(s) to Zimonjic - had vocal support from fellow countrymen. Unlike TW although it was highly partisan it was very, very good natured:))

And everyone loved the doubles!

Sorry not to meet up with TWibers - but I was tour leader for my little group.

NP,

I didn't mean to be disrespectful to Borg...the problem with tennis has always been that it dosen't have an iota of uniformity with respect to rules, structure, organization, surfaces, racquets, importance for events and the list goes on.

However, if Rafa does get 7 FOs, the story will be that he surpassed Borg "with respect to number of FO's won". Just in terms of #'s won. I don't know if the story will be that he was more dominant..which again will bring up more numbers for comparison...but in the record books, i think there is a line that says Borg won six FOs. And if Rafa wins 7, it will be written that he broke that record.

I mean there isn't a solution to this really...

freddy, yeah, Courier was clearly the favorite that yr. That win by Sergi was a huge upset at the time.

I liked Sergei's game me-self, but not him as a player, for the sole reason that the bastard ended yet another one of Pistol Pete's chances to make the FO final.

P.S. Sergi's run at the '93 FO was actually one of the most dominant in the Open era in % of games/sets won. Dude dished out bakery products to the likes of Leconte, Larsson, Sampras and Medvedev. But standing above 'em all is his 2nd-round masterpiece, in which he TRIPLE-bagelled Champion without mercy. Forget the fact that Champion was a solid CC specialist who was better on the surface than his ranking indicated at the time. To triple-bagel anyone in a pro tour is simply out of this world, but against this Bruguera, apart from the 3rd-set bagel, Pistol Pete made it competitive and lost in 4 close sets. Should be enough to debunk the nonsense that Sampras was a mug on clay. Hell, he was even one of the favorites going into the next yr's FO, with his big Rome title in the bag.

NP,

I meant uniformity across time...

Ruth,

I support your endeavor...

I vote for old Willie Renshaw..feller won gazillion Wimblys, beating up on his kid brother Ernie...

ladyjulia, yes. Just know in advance that the media will be talking out of their asses, as usual.

Just for the record, when did 'X will break Y's record' come to mean 'X will break Y's record and therefore is superior'? Because I must've missed that memo.

@Gauloises - i'm probably not a proper FOOP as I love Fedal, but as regards young players, I want Delpo back in mint condition asap and Robin Haase to continue his rise up the rankings. Is it too late to hope for Gulbis to have a sudden change of heart and play like he wants to win? I'd love Gulbis to be in the top 10 if only to mix things up a little - I could see him irritating other top players! I want Gonzo to have an Indian Summer style return and Nalby playing like he's bothered. Not much to ask is it? :)

"Just for the record, when did 'X will break Y's record' come to mean 'X will break Y's record and therefore is superior'? Because I must've missed that memo."

Ah, Grant, I knew you were gonna say something like that. FYI there was a media poll not too long ago and it said Rafa has already surpassed Borg, so my rant isn't entirely out of pissiness.

"I am not surpirsed that mama lions would think Rafa deserves perfect rest, perfect health, perfect conditoins, and perfect freedom to let his games and neuroses run wild, just funny how no other tennis players in history managed to get perfect conditoins every time they set foot on a tennis court, but with nads, it somone an outgrageous, unfair situation!"

I've never heard anybody say that. :)

NP - yeah, I remember that year, Sergi was unstoppable.

Sampras was no mug on clay, but he wasn't in the top 5 clay courters during the decade. Somehow felt, he didn't push himself beyond his limits...unlike say, Lendl's all out efforts to conquer Wimbly..Lendl skipped the FO twice in the late 80s to prepare for Wimbly, with Tony Roche. And Lendl on grass was like Sampras on clay...yet Lendl did reach 2 Wimbly finals and 4-5 SFs, including beating Edberg in a Wimbly SF one year.

"NP, he he. Good question. :) All four at the same time would be cool, no doubt. But it's worth much more to me now for Andy to get rid of the slam goose egg. I want to see how things take off for him once he gets over the hump."

Lock, you're a traitor to your gang.

"FYI there was a media poll not too long ago and it said Rafa has already surpassed Borg, so my rant isn't entirely out of pissiness."

Oh, I know you had good reason for your rant, but it's unfortunate that you had to strawman ladyjulia like crazy to get there.

Jewell, the voices in Tim's head are a wondrous thing. :)

NP, lol. Just a partial one. :)

More on Dimitrov pushing an umpire, courtesy of the incomparable Challenger10s on Twitter:

http://bit.ly/gXq62S

"And Lendl on grass was like Sampras on clay...yet Lendl did reach 2 Wimbly finals and 4-5 SFs, including beating Edberg in a Wimbly SF one year."

freddy, this is a fair point, but one that needs yet another one of my 10,000-word essays. Let me see if I have enough time for it right now.

Grant, ladyjulia is a good sport.

Lock, a partial traitor is a bit of an oxymoron.

Ok - gotta go.. see you all later folks...NP - sorry will continue that discussion on Pete's FO / Clay later...We also had a pending "Why are juniors not taught S/v skills anymore" discussion to take up from before...

Sounds good, freddy. Later.

ladyjulia, freddy - Thanks for taking up my cause while I was enjoying a nice meal with a buddy. Of course, I do hope no one else thought I was throwing a hissy fit with my original post. Anyone who knows me here by now knows I don't throw hissy fits. If anything my posts are unfocused ramblings at best and maniacal rants at worst. Much like Fed's post-victory speeches and post-loss press conferences respectively.

lol well the mama lions DO feel as entitled as Rafa to post and say anything without a peep in the other direction, followed by the easy dismissal and wink ... if you want one way traffic, rafa's got some fabulous websites where you could spend all day making excuses and reading only what u want to read, ive read at leeast a dozen Fed fan posts in the last day saying exactly what I say, Sherlock, are they hearing 'voices' too?

LOL! Ill start the cut and pasting if you really wanna see them all, funny how we all have the same voices in our heads!

ladyjulia, freddy - Thanks for taking up my cause while I was enjoying a nice meal with a buddy. Of course, I do hope no one else thought I was throwing a hissy fit with my original post. Anyone who knows me here by now knows I don't throw hissy fits. If anything my posts are unfocused ramblings at best and maniacal rants at worst. Much like Fed's post-victory speeches and post-loss press conferences respectively.

lj and freddy: OK, I'll agree that "one-way traffic" may have been too strong a term to describe the traffic flow :) of the rivalry since Wimby 2008; but, as you could see from my comment, my main concern was the way that so many people thought that merely pointing to the 2-2 2008-2010 H2H would somehow make the comment completely illegitimate. I mean, even if you line up the best statistics, I'd bet you'd find as many rational people who believe that either Roger or Rafa was ahead in the overall rivalry for that two-year period. I'd bet real money on that! :)

BTW I've been catching up on coments and responding to a comment when I see it before reading on. If I weren't doing that I might have seen that gauloises -- I prefer Hannah :) -- was here (and quite capapble of speakng for herself), and I would have probably not included a reference to her post in my own comment on the definition of "rivalry."

And now I must dip out again and go to the P.O. to mail two items left here by my most recent houseguest. Don't you hate it when people leave stuff behind and you have to mail it to them? I really, really do!

No-one said they wanted one-way traffic either, Tim. :) But can't we discuss these things without exaggerating every perfectly reasonable point to a ridiculous extreme, and then taking that as gospel truth and using it to bash a particular group of fans?

"I've never heard anybody say that. :)"

I think many people tend to dismiss results where their favorite isn't perfectly healthy, or rested, or even isn't playing well, without doing the same for every other player. It's dumb, but it's done.

It's just that Tim sees rafa fans doing this, and his brain automatically exaggerates the percentage of the fanbase that does so and the degree to which it's done, while somehow ignoring that fans of everyone do it, and then posts the results of his fever-dreams.

NP,
Are you on holidays? Good heavens, you are writing as a tennis possessed fan.

I loved Lendl. I always went to watch the Antwerpen tournament. That was a fast indoor court.

zenggi, I'm always possessed. By something.

"I mean, even if you line up the best statistics, I'd bet you'd find as many rational people who believe that either Roger or Rafa was ahead in the overall rivalry for that two-year period."

- These would be either very bad statisticians or irrational people or poor in their grasp of the english language if they all agreed with the term "it has been one-way traffic since 2008"... :)

And yes, pointing to 2-2 H2H post-2008 does make the term "one-way traffic since 2008" illegitimate if the term was referring to H2H. Pointing to their respective professional accomplishments vis-a-vis slams, titles, weeks #1 etc post-2008 does make the term "one-way traffic since 2008" illegitimate if the term was in fact referring to their respective professional accomplishments post-2008

"More on Dimitrov pushing an umpire"

jewell, I'm surprised he has such a temper. Such an action can only promise good things for his future though.

freddy: "Actually, I thought Del Potro would have been the man this year."

He certainly seemed poised for a great year, and that cautionary tale is one reason I'll never make predictions. Too afraid of coming off like Nostra-dumbass. ;-) Too many variables, injury being the most obvious.

exactly, Grant.

NP and Grant...:-)

TMFunk...welcome.

Ruth...no worries. That's the point of Fedal statistics...if only those two were the same age, played the same way, and met up 20 times a year on all surfaces equally so that we have enough of a sample size and enough variation to determine a conclusion..it would make life much easier for this fan.

psst - Pete has a new post up. I win!! Nyah, nyah! (And some people see this place as childish! Silly them!

NP,
Glad to know you name immaterials.

I found a lovely video of Pico Mónaco showing proudly all the football T-shirts he's got from his friends during his career. I cannot get enough of his cute accent.

Pete has posted a new thread for today...

Cut and paste all you want, Tim. This whole "Rafa is/was tired" issue has been kept alive by Fed fans since Sunday. Are those the mama lions you speak of?

Speaking of players who frequently prevailed over Vilas on clay, Orantes had an 8-3 H2H lead over Vilas on clay, before he lost their last couple of clay matches towards the end of Orantes' career and after one or two wrist/arm surgeries on Orantes.

Now, for some highlights of the most exciting match in the history or Fed Cup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HK0Fw_4N-8

Oops. I was lost in thought watching the video of Pico and the T-shirts.
Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbu_XFI6VeM

On to read the new post.

Sherlock - Grrrrr!

MSF, you've gotta be the biggest Date KAD in the entire multiverse.

Here's a candidate for the greatest DC tie ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXQJK8P9bHU

Oh, how could I forget. The single greatest DC performance ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elx3gcT1I_A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtDUeMXvUyY

NP: That video shows Sampras, my all-time fave, doing one of the greatest as well as one of the worst things he did during his career: winning all 3 of the rubbers he played in that DC tie -- on clay, no less, and introducing the baggy shorts to the men's Tour. He was the first of any player I saw on TV to wear them, darn it! I've never forgiven him for that even though the silly trend would have taken root with or without him, I guess. :-)

In all seriousness, Ruth, Kafelnikov's shorts in those very clips aren't that much leaner than Pete's.

LOL no sherlock, and well, i think I'll go hang out with all the other Fed fans hearing 'voices' now LOL! and yes, i guess after reading his stories, I think Neil Harman is as much a mama lion as Carol

clearly they both are hearing voices too LOL!

By necessity, your role as teacher changes as well. Rather than serve as a conduit for knowledge, you become the choreographer of a dynamic and multi-faceted discussion. Instead of lecturing, you probe, encourage, and sometimes cajole. Often you deliberately step aside to let the students assume the lead roles—and openly challenge each other with contrary opinions and analyses. You don't provide answers; you offer a pathway to greater experience and understanding.