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« Roland Garros Crisis Center, Day 7 - Overflow 2 Roland Garros Crisis Center, Day 8 - Overflow »
Roland Garros Crisis Center, Day 7 - Overflow 3
Posted 05/30/2009 @ 9 :59 PM


And some tennis and mildly OT discussions continue here, as TypePad bows wearily under 7 pages of second overflow chatter.

-- Andrew Burton

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Thx for the new overflow, Andrew.

Lemme say I do appreciate all the volunteers here, not just Andrew. I singled him out this time 'cause the last thread was actually overflowing, having just reached the 7th page.

Heh-great and timely photo Andrew. Nice work and thanks for the overflow thread.

Cleveland on a 8-0 run. Maybe I spoke too soon? Anyway Orlando lead 59-48.

NP, not sure if you're aiming that at me, but I really don't have a problem with Serena hitting the ball at Sanchez. If I said anything in that direction earlier, that is definitely not what I meant.

My only issue in all of this is, if you are going to go at me like that, the battle is ON, and let the ump make the call.

Yeah. Andrew, Rosangel, ptenis, and other anonymous volunteers. You guys rock!

My apologies re: my 9:53 p.m. post.

Apparently, bone has nerve endings.

Unfortunately, if you live by the three, you can die by the three, as the Suns used to prove.

The threes that were so kind to the Magic in the first half not treating them so well now.

Cmon, Magic, finish the beatdown.

We need your help in convincing LBJ to go to the Knicks in 2010.

erm, there is no rule against hitting an opponents body or face. However, if an opponent says that they are going to do it, then they are held up for "unsportsmanlike" behavior.

And I would love to see an example of someone who has done this deliberately on the men's singles tour in the last two or three years.

For those who actually play tennis, hitting the ball at the person who drop shots you is often your best play. If you can't defend yourself don't come to the net. Martinez Sanchez was drilled and should have conceded the point. The umpiring and line calling have been pretty poor overall.

Lock, that wasn't aimed at you. I was just having a hard time believing that a tennis fan would diss Serena for hitting to Sanchez's bod.

Reporters 'take' on Nole's match:

Novak was unrecognisable today though and wilted in the sun as Kohlschreiber made hay on Court 1


Sherlock, yeah, I think I finally see your point. It's indeed a slippery slope when we bring intangibles like honor and sportsmanship into the code of conduct. I guess one viewpoint (which you are advocating) is to let the umpire arbitrate on all issues. Just that we often play tennis without umps or line judges, and there's a bit of a spill over (for some of us at least) to the pro game. But yeah, I'm all for play clocks, replays and the like ;-).

I, once heard commies say during a Fed match that Fed used to volley into the body of the opponent at the net (although gently) to surprise his opponent..and it kind of was unpopular with the others.

Well, the Fed still does it and does not manage to surprise anyone, except losing that point completely.

C'mon Cavs! Fight! Jeez, the Magic are playing insane. Everyone is on fire. Guess they'll go cold at some point...hope these guys can keep it close and not give up.

Rafer Alston.

The master of turning the fast break into points for the other team.

And, I admit he's shooting better tonight.

Hedo hits a three, then Delonte, then Pietrus.

Damn, Delonte is good.

I think there are two discussions under way here.

It's entirely legitimate to strike a ball at a player's body. Many players choose not to do this - I think Federer at 0-15, 3-3 in the 4th set deliberately chose not to hit a ball close to the net at PHM. But it's not illegitimate. OTOH, striking a ball with intent to injure is illegitimate, but this happens extremely rarely (a bouncing ball smash with both players at the net is one circumstance where this could happen). I think Serena Williams took one of Sharapova's smashes amiss a while back, but I can't ever say I've seen a player deliberately attempt to injure another with a tennis ball.

If you play a dropshot or drop volley, then assume a ready position, you're implicitly accepting the possibility of being drilled. Heat, kitchen, etc.

If you assume a ready position then the ball hits you, the point should go to the opponent. Now we get into the second discussion - should a player call a point on herself? In many traditions (cricket comes to mind) there's a point of honor that you do this - you walk if you've touched the ball, but you also accept the umpire's decision if wrong (for example, you touch the ball with the bat before it hits the pads, but you're given out LBW anyway).

Tennis has the Code, and (as Dunlop Maxply has written) most matches are self umpired, so players have to trust each other. I had an argument with an opponent over an out call I made, in good faith, in my last match - one which clearly rankled him for a game or so, but which he put behind him before winning 6-4.

But there are many players who'll say "umpire's job, not mine," and "I get tons of bad calls, so this one evens out." I don't think it's right (and I don't think Federer did, when asked), but I don't think it's a hanging offense.

This just reminded me of another amusing incident during last year's USO when Santoro got upset that Roddick would serve hard--we all know Andy's usually not a hard server!--to his body, and some posters here thought Santoro had a perfect right to be pissed! What can I say, I love TW.

When both players are at the net let say,one players might hit directly at another player,that is deemed to be ok in tennis

That dosent mean the said player does it on purpose at all

Gee Sandra no offence until you play the game its soo different?

I have played the game for well over 30 yrs plus

ALao at the net sometimes you can hit the ball with a reflex action rather than actually using say a f/hand or b/hand at the net.

Andrew, erm, as always, well put. That's what I was trying to say.

NP, yeah. Not the magician's finest hour. Of course, Andy went and apologized as usual. Strange.

Yes, I remember Santoro being pissed at Roddick

Federer was asked in his interview today about the ball touching your body and should you self-report, or words to that effect. Clearly, he didn't know about the Serena/Sanchez fracas...he seemed to think that it was not as clear cut as some of us do here..

Hitting at players on the other side of the net happens all the time in doubles...especially targeted at the feet....Part of the game.

Psapce: it's NOT strange. Lol.

I think Serena Williams took one of Sharapova's smashes amiss a while back.
Ahh, yes! I still LMAO at Serena's reaction.

I'm really disappointed with the AP wire report of the incident from Serena's match today, with the tone of "Oh, Serena's just being a drama queen again."

Andrew, you put it well in the 2nd paragraph. Yes, of course it's wrong to hit the ball deliberately to injure the opponent, but like you said I've never seen a tennis player do anything remotely like that in my life. I still can't believe a tennis fan would see Serena's play tonite in this category.

Pspace, there was nothing to apologize for. All Roddick should've said is "Dude, it wasn't intentional. Chill."

Syd, Fed was considering a scenario where Sanchez might not have felt the ball, comparing it to not feeling a two bounce. I think the replays clearly indicate there no way in hail she didn't feel that. Unless, there's some sweet spot on the hand which is numb. I would've given her the benefit if it hit the elbow, as you sometimes can't feel things there. But this was smack in the forearm, just below the wristband.

Also in singles it is deemed to be ok

Syd, jajaja. Ok, I give up :-). I'm still pissed with Andy for clearing the air with Novak after USO. It would've been nice to have the fight spill over.

The Magic lead 86-70 at the end of Q3. Looks like it's Black Mamba-Superman in the finals.

lol. love these running dramas...maybe we'll get some with Sod/Nadal tomorrow. :)

Sys yes no doubt Rafa/Sod? gee the suspense is just killing me with the thought

Though Syd dont ask the Sod for his autograph remember he dosent do it even for the kiddies? lol!

sblily, What reaction? I didn't catch what she muttered, but she didn't look pissed at all to me?

Brown calls a TO, likely for naught. Orlando lead 91-70.

AM really? People want Sod's autograph? lol.

Pspace, you're right that Serena wasn't pissed. I don't think I've ever seen her pissed after a win. :)

Syd yes,these are desperate times we live in.

Pspace, thanks.

Obviously, in the perfect world, Sanchez would have owned up to it. I just have a hard time getting too riled up about it. I don't think Sanchez is Nole's equivalent of Satan on the WTA side.

Pspace - the slow motion replay at the end. Looked like Serena was saying something starting with "B" and it wasn't "BFF." :)

AM; too funny.

The Cavs need to foul Howard, but when he's taking a shot. Poor foul by Varejao. Orlando lead 94-78 with 6:41 to go.

The British press do get carried away...and this time its not about Andy!

What does the Times want? To be the first one to predict that Federer will win Wimbledon and the No. 1 ranking in 2009, but lose the FO to Nadal?

Wow, so this will be the 1st time the Magic will make the finals since Shaq-Penny in '95, just when I started watching the NBA religiously. Can't believe it's already '09.

Oh, yeah, I dunno why Brown hasn't substituted Wally for Gibson. Poor performance all around by the Cavs. Same score, 5:24 to go.

Not used to seeing Scerbiak throw up air balls. (He's had at least two tonite.)

TNT ads for some new nurse show has the nurse saying: "I break all the rules."

How stupid is that. Any nurse in the real world who breaks all the rules loses her certification in about a day.

Last time Soderling and Rafa played, Soderling seemed to shy away when Rafa gave him a little pat at the net, at the end of the match.

Maybe tomorrow's big controversy will arise from Rafa chasing Soderling as Soderling tries to avoid a tummy rub.

NBA coaches who win "Coach of the Year" often are fired within a couple of years of receiving the award. Wonder how long Mike Brown will last at Cleveland.

"Now that Nadal owns all that Federer holds dear in the game, the psychological tables are turned. Nadal has to defend his position as No 1, as well as his titles, and holding the castle is less natural to him than marauding. Furthermore, those clamouring at the walls are acting for the moment in the common interest to bring him down. In Madrid, Djokovic wounded Nadal in the semi-finals in a three-set match lasting four hours; Federer finished him off.

When Federer was at the summit, he had one adversary to really worry about: Nadal. Nadal has several: Djokovic, Andy Murray, Juan Martin Del Potro, Jo-Wilfried Tsonga and Federer."

I think the writer makes a good point about everybody attacking Nadal as the common interest since he is No. 1 and also the psychological table turning. He is definitely the man to beat. But a couple of things:

1. Nadal is very good at defending what he wins. He has done it 3 years at FO. This year and the next will tell us whether Nadal can defend his non-clay slams.

2. Federer has Murray to worry about too. Murray is dangerous for Fed.

Feel bad for LeBron. He gave it his all, but tonite the Magic were too good for the Cavs. Orlando lead 98-79 @ 3:53.

sblily, ok ;-). Your lip reading skills are better than mine. It doesn't look like the B word to me. it just me or does Shazza look smokin' hot in that you can see distractions abound.

Yeah, Sorana, Wally is shooting like crap tonite.

Orlando lead 101-86 with just over 2 min to go.

ladyjulia: Thanks for the article. As usual the press folks just jump the gun.

""Federer has Murray to worry about too. Murray is dangerous for Fed.""

Everyone has to worry about Murray, including Nadal. Anyway, before aiming for #1, Fed has to first secure his #2, which could be under threat if Muzz makes it to the SF here.

Interesting take on Pinky's dress by Pat Cash.

***cough, cough*** not to completely change the subject or anything, but before I had to retreat to the garden during Fed's match, I did manage to watch some of the Tsongas/Rochus match. And I have 2 comments.

1.) Tsonga was playing great and is a threat to anyone and every one. (He was also charming as all get out in his TC interview.)

2.) I really had forgotten how totally terribly teeny tiny the Rochi are. Do they even use adult size rackets? What must it be like to ALWAYS be David...without that much of a slingshot?

OK, back to b-ball and the death of tennis/honor/justice/truth/all that we hold dear, including beer and ice cream, that has resulted from elbowgate.

This is what Cleveland needs:

I'm not a Tracy McGrady fan, but what he did that game maybe the most impressive scoring outburst I've ever seen--especially, in light of the fact that he did it against San Antonio, usually known for great defense.

imjimmy, I actually wouldn't mind if Fed drops a spot in the rankings. Of course, Muzz will have earned it. But, it gives us a whole new set of SF and F matchups. It would be nice to see Nole and Muzz duke it out for once in a slam! As Fed says, who gives a crap about #2, #3, or #4. No. 1 is the only thing that matters (for him).


I don't think the article is that far off. TMF seems to be coming back over the last 2-3 weeks. I can see Fed pulling off the Wimby-USO double this year. I think number 1 would be harder because it would require some sort of run through the masters series and there are loads more players who can trouble Fed too these days.

And the article did acknowledge that it was a matter of whether Fed can sustain this. They didn't write it as a given like they do with the annoying Murray numbe 1 articles.

manuelsantanafan, I've seen that clip at least a dozen times. Indeed the greatest comeback effort I've ever seen.

deeps - Yeah, and TMB might have a thing or two to say about Fed's participation in the summer hard court season.

[When Federer was at the summit, he had one adversary to really worry about: Nadal. Nadal has several: Djokovic, Andy Murray, Juan Martin Del Potro, Jo-Wilfried Tsonga and Federer."]

what a bunch of BS, in my opinion.

what JMDP, Tsonga, Murray and Djokovic are better than Roddick, Hewitt, Nalbandian and ? Since when?

Collectively, we have a very very short term memory.

[TNT ads for some new nurse show has the nurse saying: "I break all the rules."

How stupid is that. Any nurse in the real world who breaks all the rules loses her certification in about a day.]

LOL, snap.

anyway, 'night everyone

Google "nadal" and one gets a high percentage of hits involving Andy Murray articles.

The British media go somewhat overboard re: their toothy paladin.

Sher, It's the equalization of GOAT opportunity ;-). Basically, you want everyone with 10 or so slams to be a legit contender. So, if a guy has slightly less, then you look and see if his contemporaries had a reasonable bunch. That means he played in a strong era, not that he wasn't so good. I'm sure if Rafa dominates this era, it will be considered one of wussies in the future.

NP, I'm kidding, fyi ;-).

Posted by Sandra 05/30/2009 @ 9:21 PM

Sherlock, your comment is non-responsive to the facts of the incident as reported.

Cosi, what do you think an accusation of coaching from the stands during a match constitutes? It's called cheating - that was the accusation Roger was making."

Sandra, it was posted that Roger called Toni a "cheater" he never ever said those words. During a match, he yelled "Is that okay Uncle Toni" because Uncle Toni's coaching or talking or whatever was getting on his nerves.. that was the end of that. He never had a hissy fit about it afterward or made a big deal or called the Nadals "cheaters"... comparing this to the Serena incident is apples to oranges because it's not the same situtaion or tone between the individuals involved. The only reason Roger even mentioned it after the match is because the press was digging and asked him about it, he had no hard feelings toward the Nadals nor any bone to pick about any "cheating".


Yes, it is quite toned down compared to the Murray predictions. But, I still think it is far fetched to even question whether Fed will be No. 1 at the end of the year.

Nadal is no one-slam wonder and no fluke...he is genuine GOAT material, he has proved his consistency for years. I doubt if he is going to give up a ranking it took him 3 years to chase.

Besides, the main point is that everybody's forgotten that Fed is going to have a baby. He is pretty emotional and I doubt if he is going to come out and play lights out when the baby is out. I would think it will take him a few months to adjust to that.

The second is...that his back looks better, but it could conk out everyday. He is not getting younger.

That said, I would definitely believe that Fed can win a slam this year. But until he figures out how to run his family life, he won't be No. 1 anytime soon.

Sher: Love you but, yes. Look at what Murray and Nole have done against Fed, let alone Rafa. I do believe the field is stronger now. :)

Manuel LOL!

imjimmy Please I am sooooooooooooooooo over Pinky and his outfit? lol!

Ok, I need a pic of Johnny Mac in those pants.

Sher, I see it as a testament to how good Federer was - that as good as these players were, they weren't realistic threats to his throne post-2005. Outside of clay, I don't expect Nadal to dominate like Federer did at his peak and to me, that's not a weak vs strong era argument - more like how Federer is the better all-surface player.

Cosi: Actually, in a press conference, Roger did insinuate Toni was coaching Rafa. Again, he never gave details and I think he was just irritated because he was losing.

Posted by Sherlock 05/30/2009 @ 10:07 PM

NP, not sure if you're aiming that at me, but I really don't have a problem with Serena hitting the ball at Sanchez. If I said anything in that direction earlier, that is definitely not what I meant.

My only issue in all of this is, if you are going to go at me like that, the battle is ON, and let the ump make the call."

In a way, this is similar to how I feel.. of course you want to be honest about the situation, but if I'm playing a girl that I know intentionally tried to drill me in the head with accompanying malice, not sure if I would be so quick to give up the point unless the ump called it. In fact, somebody tring to hit me in my face or head as hard as they could at net would really really tick me off.It's one thing to aim a ball low over the net at the body where most opponents can get out of the way or protect themselves, but when it's high at the head.. that could so hurt somebody. Serena does this alot.. then she always makes a big deal about how "sorry" she is after she does it. She's not sorry, she does it on purpose. I've read her dad used to make her and Venus stand close to the net and try and drill each other over and over again with the ball, and they would hit each other and sometimes cry. Serena was brought up to be a "mean" tennis player, sometimes it backfires on her and makes her opponents and the public be "mean" in return.


I have to disagree with you there.

Fed lost 7 consecutive times to Hewitt. Was the field stronger then? Hewitt was a former No. 1 and won 2 GS. He was no slouch. Murray hasn't even won a slam yet.

The field is called "weak" now because Fed solved him completely. Its right...he created a monster...he even gets bad press, because he didn't solve Nadal even though he has had three years.

ladyjulia: We will have to respectfully agree to disagree. :)

rafadoc - I don't think this is a stronger era. This is my analogy - Usain Bolt broke the world record - doesn't mean the guy whose record he broke was an inferior runner. Federer set the standard for his generation - the next generation of players grew up with that as their starting point so there are a lot more players now who can meet the Fed standard. And if one of them can pull away, they would be the GOAT of their era.

rafadoc - Andrew posted that Fed presserwhere he made the comments about Tio Toni earlier - somewhere toward the end of overflow 2. Pretty funny actually - now that a lot of water and titles have flowed under the damn.

Can you people STOP underestimating TMF? He's TMF for a reason, and he's doesn't choke big matches.

Sher...I agree with deeps...Fed solved them completely. Its a testament to how good Fed was.

Just like Rafa has not been winning on clay for four years because the field is weak!

Sher...I agree with deeps...Fed solved them completely. Its a testament to how good Fed was.

Just like Rafa has not been winning on clay for four years because the field is weak!

rafadoc, I wouldn't say JMDP and Djokovic are good examples of doing something vs Federer or Nadal... And Nadal owns Murray in their h2h so far.

I do believe some of these players have the potential to be much better players than the bunch I've named(*cough*Mandy*cough*). But as of right now, it's all speculation since the other guys have multiple slams between them and decades in top ten stuff.

(Love ya, too though.)

must really go now.

deeps: I just see the current field really competitive and I see the number 1 and 2 struggle against #3 and #4 with some regularity. Strong field, I say. Anyhooooo....respect your opinion. :)

rafadoc, Nalby and Hewitt both had winning records against Roger, which he reversed over the course of his career. It was 2-7 Hewitt till the end of 2003 and 1-5 against Nalbandian. He has dominated Roddick and Safin throughout. Except for Nalbandian, all the other guys have won slam(s). And, Nalby has done SF or better at all four. Something which Muzz, Elf etc haven't yet achieved.

You could say they were headcases. But, a lot of their headcasery was a result of drubbings from TMF. I mean, how do you get up after you played your best tennis and got smacked all over the place.

While I rate Novak and Muzz quite highly, they haven't done that much more than any of these guys to warrant so much attention. We all believe they will turn out better. But, Rafa could just as well whack them into oblivion. Will that diminish him or them? I don't think so.

""that's not a weak vs strong era argument - ""

deeps: That arguments does have some merit. I have a feeling that when all is said and done, this era could be one of the stronger ones in tennis. Muzz and Nole both have the potential to be multiple slam winners. I would be very surprised if they don't do so. There are other exciting players too. I envision the next 2-3 years with the honors being shared by a bunch of players as opposed to a TMF like domination.

Lady Julia I have to disargee with hewitt Please he was soo lucky to win even 2 slams

Good returner of the ball,

he has no Big weapons at all?

gee Roger and co were just getting their respective games clicking

Sher: I just say we celebrate that tennis has been ab-fab in the past few years. Cheers to Roger and Rafa! sometimes Fed...even TMF.... DOES choke big matches...not often, just enough to show that he is human. Sometimes, (gasp) he even plays lousy in big matches. Again, until very recently, not very often, and lets hope that phase is well left behind him.


About Toni, I think Roger said in 2007 that he spoke to Toni about that in 2006 itself and that everything is okay between them.

Heh-^^what imjimmy said. :)

gee what was Hamburg? a choke? Roger was serving for the game wasnt he?

Pspace, not sure what you were referring to.

NP, oh, the weak vs strong era argument. I was just kidding around in that post.

rafadoc - respect you too back.

imjimmy - but is it more competitive cos Nole, Murray are better players or because none of them, even Nadal, are as good as Fed was in his era? I remember the end of 2003 when people were saying the same thing about Nalby-JCF-Federer-Roddick-Hewitt and we all know how that ended.

Roger's fault is that he made seem everything look easy. Rafa wins his matches the hard way, so it seems that his opponents are closer.

Rafa plays a five set match, and everybody talks about tiredness. Roger plays a five set match and people say he looks like he hasn't played at all.

In fact if Rafa plays a five set match, its because his opponent wanted to beat him. If Roger plays a five set match, its because he was below par.

One more time for those who play tennis. Thanks for this
GC20 @10:11

'For those who actually play tennis, hitting the ball at the person who drop shots you is often your best play. If you can't defend yourself don't come to the net. Martinez Sanchez was drilled and should have conceded the point. The umpiring and line calling have been pretty poor overall.'

Serena was brought up to be a 'mean tennis player?!!!
Good gracious.

Roger was the benchmark for all players regardless of the so called Weak Era Argument.

Roger could only play the players that were in front of him period

Gee its not his fault he is that good?

We dont get players like Roger too often at all

I just sat back and marvelled at him,regardless of the outcome,score whatever.

well, i guess I will never buy the strong-weak era argument.

Time will show what Nole does, and what Murray does and what Rafa does.

Roger has pretty much done what he wanted to.

ladyjulia: Really? That bums me that you think that way. Le sigh.

rafadoc...its okay!

I love watching Roger and Rafa though...:-)

So the "weak era" argument is hot again, eh? You're not gonna convince the KADs, but here's something to consider for the rational folks. Nole and Muzz have lots of weapons to hurt even TMF with. Did Hewitt? No. Safin? Yes, but the guy's matchless in inconsistency. Nalby? Yes, but he only shows up during the indoor season. And of course Nalby and others are still active in this era.

As for the "they've yet to prove themselves as long-term threats" point, right, but does anybody sane think Nole and Murray won't win multiple Slams? As I've noted before it doesn't matter what "era" the player is in. What matters is whether he was a Slam threat in the years we're considering, and it's undeniable that Nole didn't become a threat until '07 and Muzz until after '08 Wimby. Sorry, but this time the crowd is right: The competition has become tougher.

Well...I am off. Not up to the Roger v. Rafa knife fight. Too much to enjoy in 2008/2009 for this Rafa fan to get caught up in any kind of negativity.

Vamos! ;-)

ladyjulia: Cool. :) Enjoy your evening! Bye All! did Hewitt defeat Federer seven consecutive times? Coming back from 5-2 or something once in a fifth set (Davis cup???)?

Seven times is no fluke.

This is the fault of the Times :-)
They brought this up!

So, Safin is a headcase and Nole isn't? What happened at Wimby 2008? And FO 2009? And AO 2009?

Sometimes as passionate fans of one player

We lose insight of other players?

Pspace, I was on the phone so I didn't even notice your post. Gotcha.

deeps, I do think most tennis fans without an ax to grind would agree that Nole and Murray are indeed better players than Roddick, Hewitt, JCF & Co. And like I said Roddick, Nalby and others are still active as top players, so I don't see how any1 could persuasively argue the competition hasn't gotten stronger.

NP: I wish I could have articulated as well as you did in your 11:36 post. Well said. Okay...really going now.

One last thought. If any of you have live streams for tomorrow's matches, will you please post them? US coverage is going to be tough for us diehards. Thanks in advance!

ladyjulia, I don't think its the tiredness thing. As Pspace said - if Rafa manages to whack the rest and go on a grand slam roll, people will start calling this era weak too. Mandy will suddenly become the guy who can't perform on the big stage, Nole will be a headcase, JMDP as just inferior, Fed too old. I can see the write-ups 2 years from now.

About the tiredness thing, Rafa plays probably the most physically grinding game at the top. Its a testament to his talent that he stayed at the top so long with that game - 4 years this july since he became number 2. Fed plays probably the least exhausting style and that's a testament to his great tennis ability. This Rafa fan feels that the tiredness thing is a knock against Rafa's game - if he wants to stay at the top and one day surpass Fed, he needs to find a way to win more easily which he is doing by the way. Its like the headcase - yes you are a headcase but its still your bloody fault. Its not like you were hit by a drunk driver or something.

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