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« Old Master Playing Ball: Thanks, Coach »
Goat War: Fed vs. Dad
Posted 11/21/2007 @ 7 :36 PM

2007_11_21_samprasfederer_blog It’s hard to say what a tennis exhibition means. You’re not getting, say, anything like the final of Wimbledon, if only because the people paying for the matches aren’t interested in who wins. They’re interested in having the players put on a show. A 6-0 set in an exhibition isn’t a blowout. It’s a mistake.

So right from the start, we know that the series between Roger Federer and Pete Sampras is not going to give us either guy at their best: Sampras is 10 years past his prime, while Federer is basically getting paid to keep it competitive. As Andre Agassi said when he was asked recently about these matches: “They’ll be as close as Federer wants them to be.”

Despite all those caveats, I was intrigued, as any fan should be—these are two of the four (along with Laver and Borg) greatest tennis players in history. My anticipation was only slightly dimmed when I flipped on the Tennis Channel and saw that the stadium in Seoul was not even close to full. And I could even ignore the fact that it was being billed as—huh?— the “Clash of Times,” which doesn’t have quite the same ring as the Thrilla in Manila.

None of this bothered me because of the simple, surprising presence of Pete Sampras. While Federer, in his red Nike shirt and headband, looked like a tennis pro, Sampras, balding, puffy-faced, in long green shorts, looked pretty much like what he is: a stay-at-home dad.

But it was Sampras’ game that made this worth watching, for one big reason: He doesn’t play power-baseline tennis. I don’t think I’d realized how cookie-cutter the sport had gotten until watching him today. Sampras doesn’t rally, as bizarre as that may sound. He wins with his serve, which he hits almost equally hard on first and second deliveries. On his opponent’s serve he goes for a winner every time he gets a look at a forehand. I’d forgotten all this, and after five years of pure baseline tennis from the men, it looked very odd. I’d also forgotten, frankly, how boring this style can be. Sampras always took his opponent out of a match by making the first strike, but that hit-and-miss game also left fans with little to grab onto or marvel about.

It was enough to throw Federer off for the first six games. Sampras broke him with a vintage crosscourt forehand and eventually went up 4-2. Pete was winning with aces to all four corners; heavy slice service winners to the deuce court that left Federer helpless the way they had every other opponent over the years; well-placed volleys off floating returns (Sampras was less a classic serve-and-volleyer in the Edberg-Rafter vein than he was a server who also volleyed); and strong, deep forehands. What was most striking was how the points were won or lost on Sampras’ racquet; Federer was scrambling and rarely in control of a point. (Again, who knows what gear Federer had it in; it was clear, though, that he cared about winning, and afterward he said he felt pressure not to lose to a retired guy.)

Then Sampras’ rust started to show, and Federer began to read his serve. The American double-faulted a half-dozen times, often on crucial points, and dumped equally crucial volleys into the net. He was up 4-2 and 15-30 on Federer’s serve; a few minutes later Federer was ripping a backhand pass by him for the set.

Afterward, both guys were winningly humble. Sampras said that Fed was “nice enough” to invite him to play, while Federer was nervous playing his idol and was happy to hang out with a Grand Slam champion because there are so few of them around these days (you’ve only got yourself to blame for that, Roger!).

All in all, the match reminded me of what made Sampras so tough to play, and so different from Federer and the other guys today: He was all about dictating, about pressuring, about the first strike. He showed that that kind of game can still work, even against one of the best returners and defenders around. Young players take note: There may not be any net-rushers anymore, but there could be.

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First, Fed vs Dad Part II at 7 AM on TC on Thanksgiving morning in USA.

anyone think a better exo would've been Federer and Sampras playiny doubles against say the Byran brothers, in what might be called real tennis,just imagine Roger and Pete on the same side of the net,

It was good to see Sampras out there. It was good just to see a player who's plan was to end points at the net. (I even miss Taylor Dent. Is he ever coming back?)


I think these exos are entertaining, but, wow, I think it's clear Federer was just feeling Sampras out in the first few games. It was almost like Federer said, "Okay, that's enough.'' Then he put his foot on the gas. Not that it matters. Sampras's legacy doesn't suffer any from losing exos at age 36.

It would be fun if Federer went to a strict serve-and-volley strategy in one of these matches. It would be like stepping back in time have both players constantly pushing forward with the goal of ending most of the points at the net.

"I don’t think I’d realized how cookie-cutter the sport had gotten until watching him today. "

I've noticed that for a while.

Watching the match now, about halfway through the first set. Neither player is going full bore, but I've seen a few of their trademark shots. It's nice to see that Sampras serve, the big forehand, and the volleys again.

"Sampras was less a classic serve-and-volleyer in the Edberg-Rafter vein than he was a server who also volleyed"

He also had a stronger backcourt game that either of those guys (his net game was not quite as good). In fact, earlier in his career, he didn't come in that much aside from Wimbledon and some of the indoor tournaments. It was probably during the late 1990s after he had been working with Annacone for a few years that he served and volleyed more throughout the year.

Steve, I thought you were going to dump on Sampras's style of play entirely, until the end. I couldn't agree more about the potential effectiveness that could be had today with Sampras' kind of tennis.

One comment Sampras made after the first match was telling, and illustrated how potent his serve made the rest of his game. He made some remark about how it was his movement that suffered the most from lack of play, and age I suppose; it's that mid-court, almost tumbling over kind of volleying that's missing today, and at which Edberg and Rafter were so talented. Sampras was as well – you might even say he made his money with his low volley, since it dismantled so many otherwise potent returns of serve – but when you added Sampras' serve the effect was to give him a pass on a couple of volleys the Edbergs and Rafters of the tour couldn't afford to miss.

There are players today with serves that are all but as devastating as Sampras', and players who come in pretty often, but there's no one who can move and volley in the mid-court the way those players did. And there's no one who puts both things together.

You're so right, there could be. But *will* there be?

Steve, right up until the end I thought you were going to dump on Sampras's style of play entirely. I couldn't agree more about the potential effectiveness that could be had today with Sampras' kind of tennis.

One comment Sampras made after the first match was telling, and illustrated how potent his serve made the rest of his game. He made a remark about how it was his movement that suffered the most from lack of play, and age I suppose; it's that mid-court, almost tumbling over kind of volleying that's missing today, and at which Edberg and Rafter were so talented.

Sampras was as well – you might even say he made his money with his low volley, since it dismantled so many otherwise potent returns of serve – but when you added Sampras' serve the effect was to give him a pass on a couple of volleys the Edbergs and Rafters of the tour couldn't afford to miss.

There are players today with serves that are all but as devastating as Sampras', and players who come in pretty often, but there's no one who can move and volley in the mid-court the way those players did. And there's no one who puts both things together.

You're so right, there could be. But *will* there be?

Sorry, double post.

Must have been a different match I was watching.

Pete had much more of an all-court game than he was given credit for. I was reading an OLD presser from Agassi where he was saying that Sampras's speed was a disguised weapon..

'He wins with his serve, which he hits almost equally hard on first and second deliveries.'

Something which I have mentioned before about the Sampras game. It is also true that Sampras had a great back court game which is reflected in his earlier matches for example against Lendl at the '90 U.S. Open or the one against Edberg at the '92 U.S. Open.

First strike tennis is great, but

In men's tennis serve became the most important weapon. The return of serve evolved, but it's progress probably lagged the serve, but it is the second most important weapon.

Very generally speaking, on first serve players tend to win more than 50 percent of points ( by a fair margin ) and on second serve often times it is less than 50 percent.

Of course , other strokes have varying varying degrees of importance based on surface, matchup issues, playing style etc. Sampras excelled as he had a great all court game, it was difficult to break him and he played with a greater degree of freedom on his opponents serve.

At the same time , when compared to Federer, Sampras' records on slower hard courts/clay and the domination/consistency suffers. Inspite of having a relatively weaker serve compared to Pete, Federer has the better results over a four year period.

First strike tennis is effective in any era. The power of serve to start and end a point can be numbing.

Players like Goran, Isner, Karovic have monster serves - difference being Sampras had other facets of the game that made him a complete player.

", when compared to Federer, Sampras' records on slower hard courts/clay and the domination/consistency suffers. "

Federer has a better backcourt game, and his movement on clay is better that that of Sampras, who rarely seemed comfortable moving on that surface.

"it was difficult to break he played with a greater degree of freedom on his opponents serve"

Good point. It afforded him the opportunity to really go after his opponent's serve late in sets or at other crucial junctures. He would return aggressively off both wings. One of the best examples of this was the 1999 YEC final against Agassi, where he made it a point to tee off on Agassi's serve - quite a few clean winners that caught Agassi flatfooted, as well as forcing shots.

Dad, hunh? Now that you've said that, the photo looks like a guy and his dad at graduation, wearing academic robes.

Well, I've never seen Federer caught heading in the wrong direction so often -- whether that was his relaxed state or Sampras' hard-to-read volleys and serves, I don't know.

I only saw clips, but those of you who will be enjoying it first thing in the morning, enjoy! Happy Thanksgiving.

The talk of the good old days of S&V is getting exactly that: old.

A number of armchair coaches seem to fantasize that if there was just one good S&V player out there, he would tear up the tour these days. It's ridiculous how often we hear people say that, he needs to come to net more, attack, finish the point, blah blah blah.

But for those who really believe this, why do you think there's maybe a handful of true S&V players in the top 100 today? None in the top 10 or even 20? Maybe it's because these players, their coaches, their trainers, everyone around them are all idiots for missing out on this golden solution. Or maybe, just maybe they know something us armchair quarterbacks don't, maybe they're out there actually playing on these slower courts with ginormous rackets and players making passing shots on their ass 6 feet from the baseline, maybe that has something to do with it?

This isn't a chicken and egg thing, that style is gone because the conditions today simply no longer allow for it. The theory that nobody plays it because it isn't taught young is BS too. S&V didn't disappear overnight, like evolution, that style and those players slowly got weeded out by a new style that better suited the new conditions.

Besides, I for one don't miss those serve fest days, I actually like rallies that last more than 3 shots.

An interesting stat which I believe has not been analyzed enough is that often times, points won on first serve exceeds 50% and points won on second serve is less than 50% .

This shows the importance of the return of serve in tennis today and how these two strokes 'over rides' so to speak the other strokes in tennis.

Another way to look at it is - first serve gives the advantage to the server and second serve ( strange as it may sound ) to the returner !! If the returner gets a good strike, it is as if he is starting the point.

what match were you watching????
sampras was huffing and puffing while fed was being respectful and trying not to embarass the guy...by the way if fed 'was scrambling and rarely in control of the point', it was because he was not working at 60% of his potential out of respect for pete...i guess u would have preferred a 6-0, 6-0 drubbing of pete by fed, and then one can only imagine the comments in the ready for fed.....ummm, 'lack of respect', 'arrogant', bla-bla bla ---
take it for what it was -- a fun loving exhibition with a great current #1 showing a much deference to a former #1, nothing more nothing less....
by the way if u find today's types of matches boring relative to yestertear, that is an indication that just like ur posts, it is YOU who is boring! give me long lasting rallies, with great angles and hustles anyday, over some abrupt and truncated warm-up consisting of a single serve, a return shot and volley ending the point on three shots!

what match were you watching????
sampras was huffing and puffing while fed was being respectful and trying not to embarass the guy...by the way if fed 'was scrambling and rarely in control of the point', it was because he was not working at 60% of his potential out of respect for pete...i guess u would have preferred a 6-0, 6-0 drubbing of pete by fed, and then one can only imagine the comments in the ready for fed.....ummm, 'lack of respect', 'arrogant', bla-bla bla ---
take it for what it was -- a fun loving exhibition with a great current #1 showing a much deference to a former #1, nothing more nothing less....
by the way if u find today's types of matches boring relative to yestertear, that is an indication that just like ur posts, it is YOU who is boring! give me long lasting rallies, with great angles and hustles anyday, over some abrupt and truncated warm-up consisting of a single serve, a return shot and volley ending the point on three shots!

Fed played with his watch on... nuff said.

ANDRE..a lot of people was watching a different match from lame tignor!

"WERE"

It would be harder for Sampras or any other serve and volleyer to be No. 1 today. More and more players are used to returning huge serves, so the return gets to (or by) the net player faster than it ever has. With more powerful racquets and better strings, passing shots have more pace and spin on them. Serve and volleyers of the past would have less time to react today.

When I saw Roger wearing his Rolex this morning, I knew at once that he would be "playing" instead of there to play. I think that Roger was kind and gentle. His serve was soft, and for the most part, he waited for Pete to fault, rather than attempt to beat him. Periodically he appeared to forget himself and played an excellent point--only to grin sheepishly afterwards. Oops!!! I felt sorry for Pete, who was a shadow of his previous self. I was embarrassed for the commentator, who spoke as if what was happening on the court was a real match, a real challenge. Roger was gracious to allow Pete to maintain some degree of dignity; the crowds, although subdued, seemed to enjoy the match; the viewers had another opportunity to watch Roger and Pete in action. Everyone won, and it was fun. But folks, please let's not take the exhibition seriously! It was simply a good show.

what is the point of this 3 match exhibition? fed at full effort will throttle sampras. fed playing at about 75% effort holding back just enough to give the people there moneys worth. fed won 4 and 3 today all pete had was his serve. fed carrying the old man around the court, it is sad really. pete was a great champion but cmon this is a waste of time.

"It is also true that Sampras had a great back court game which is reflected in his earlier matches for example against Lendl at the '90 U.S. Open or the one against Edberg at the '92 U.S. Open."

Sampras certainly had a better baseline game than the strictest serve and volleyers. McEnroe, Edberg, Rafter, Cash, etc., were usually automatic dead ducks if they got caught in a baseline rally with a baseline bully on any surface. Sampras usually did just fine unless the rally started to last forever. But...let's not get carried away. There was a higher level of baseline play, otherwise he would have won the French. He never made a French final because his groundies didn't hold up when he absolutely needed them to.

Forewarned , this post is a lil geeky ....lol. It took an exhibition match to ponder on the importance of the Pete serve to his game, but listed below are serve related stats of Pete and Federer in their matches against Agassi.
---------------------------------------------------------------

An interesting stat of Sampras and Federer in their matches against Agassi.

1. Sampras leads Agassi 20-14 in their head to head series. When points won on second serve are considered , Agassi leads Sampras 22-8 (stats for 4 matches not available).

2. Federer leads Agassi 8-3 in their head to head series. When points won on second serve are considered , Federer leads Agassi 7-4 ( note Federer slips by one match, but compared to Sampras his stat looks better).

-----------------------------------------------------
Listed below are the number of matches and the percentage
of points won on first serve. (again , note stats not available for 4 matches for Pete-Andre)

Sampras Federer

90% - 100%, 2 , 0
80% - 89% , 15 , 2
70% - 79% , 8 , 6
60% - 69% , 5 , 3
-----------------------
30 matches 11 matches

------------------------------------------------

Percentge of points won on second serve and the number of matches

Sampras Federer

= 50%, 12, 7

--------------------------------------------------------------
Lastly, the difference between the percentage of points won on first and second serve is also greater for Pete.

This can be tricky, and Pete should not be penalized simply because he has the better first serve.

Example - Pete wins 90% on first serve and 40% on second serve, while Federer wins 80% on first serve and 40% on second serve.

On the face of it, looking 'only at the difference' would put Pete at a disadvantage because difference in his case (90% - 40% = 50 %) is greater than that for Federer ( 80% - 40% = 40 % )

.... the above example reflects Pete's superior serve, but importantly if the 'actual percentage' of points won on second serve is less for Pete ( not shown in the above example), then the 'difference' reflects on other aspects of the game.

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