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« Old Master Playing Ball: Thanks, Coach »
Goat War: Fed vs. Dad
Posted 11/21/2007 @ 7 :36 PM

2007_11_21_samprasfederer_blog It’s hard to say what a tennis exhibition means. You’re not getting, say, anything like the final of Wimbledon, if only because the people paying for the matches aren’t interested in who wins. They’re interested in having the players put on a show. A 6-0 set in an exhibition isn’t a blowout. It’s a mistake.

So right from the start, we know that the series between Roger Federer and Pete Sampras is not going to give us either guy at their best: Sampras is 10 years past his prime, while Federer is basically getting paid to keep it competitive. As Andre Agassi said when he was asked recently about these matches: “They’ll be as close as Federer wants them to be.”

Despite all those caveats, I was intrigued, as any fan should be—these are two of the four (along with Laver and Borg) greatest tennis players in history. My anticipation was only slightly dimmed when I flipped on the Tennis Channel and saw that the stadium in Seoul was not even close to full. And I could even ignore the fact that it was being billed as—huh?— the “Clash of Times,” which doesn’t have quite the same ring as the Thrilla in Manila.

None of this bothered me because of the simple, surprising presence of Pete Sampras. While Federer, in his red Nike shirt and headband, looked like a tennis pro, Sampras, balding, puffy-faced, in long green shorts, looked pretty much like what he is: a stay-at-home dad.

But it was Sampras’ game that made this worth watching, for one big reason: He doesn’t play power-baseline tennis. I don’t think I’d realized how cookie-cutter the sport had gotten until watching him today. Sampras doesn’t rally, as bizarre as that may sound. He wins with his serve, which he hits almost equally hard on first and second deliveries. On his opponent’s serve he goes for a winner every time he gets a look at a forehand. I’d forgotten all this, and after five years of pure baseline tennis from the men, it looked very odd. I’d also forgotten, frankly, how boring this style can be. Sampras always took his opponent out of a match by making the first strike, but that hit-and-miss game also left fans with little to grab onto or marvel about.

It was enough to throw Federer off for the first six games. Sampras broke him with a vintage crosscourt forehand and eventually went up 4-2. Pete was winning with aces to all four corners; heavy slice service winners to the deuce court that left Federer helpless the way they had every other opponent over the years; well-placed volleys off floating returns (Sampras was less a classic serve-and-volleyer in the Edberg-Rafter vein than he was a server who also volleyed); and strong, deep forehands. What was most striking was how the points were won or lost on Sampras’ racquet; Federer was scrambling and rarely in control of a point. (Again, who knows what gear Federer had it in; it was clear, though, that he cared about winning, and afterward he said he felt pressure not to lose to a retired guy.)

Then Sampras’ rust started to show, and Federer began to read his serve. The American double-faulted a half-dozen times, often on crucial points, and dumped equally crucial volleys into the net. He was up 4-2 and 15-30 on Federer’s serve; a few minutes later Federer was ripping a backhand pass by him for the set.

Afterward, both guys were winningly humble. Sampras said that Fed was “nice enough” to invite him to play, while Federer was nervous playing his idol and was happy to hang out with a Grand Slam champion because there are so few of them around these days (you’ve only got yourself to blame for that, Roger!).

All in all, the match reminded me of what made Sampras so tough to play, and so different from Federer and the other guys today: He was all about dictating, about pressuring, about the first strike. He showed that that kind of game can still work, even against one of the best returners and defenders around. Young players take note: There may not be any net-rushers anymore, but there could be.

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Comments

First, Fed vs Dad Part II at 7 AM on TC on Thanksgiving morning in USA.

anyone think a better exo would've been Federer and Sampras playiny doubles against say the Byran brothers, in what might be called real tennis,just imagine Roger and Pete on the same side of the net,

It was good to see Sampras out there. It was good just to see a player who's plan was to end points at the net. (I even miss Taylor Dent. Is he ever coming back?)


I think these exos are entertaining, but, wow, I think it's clear Federer was just feeling Sampras out in the first few games. It was almost like Federer said, "Okay, that's enough.'' Then he put his foot on the gas. Not that it matters. Sampras's legacy doesn't suffer any from losing exos at age 36.

It would be fun if Federer went to a strict serve-and-volley strategy in one of these matches. It would be like stepping back in time have both players constantly pushing forward with the goal of ending most of the points at the net.

"I don’t think I’d realized how cookie-cutter the sport had gotten until watching him today. "

I've noticed that for a while.

Watching the match now, about halfway through the first set. Neither player is going full bore, but I've seen a few of their trademark shots. It's nice to see that Sampras serve, the big forehand, and the volleys again.

"Sampras was less a classic serve-and-volleyer in the Edberg-Rafter vein than he was a server who also volleyed"

He also had a stronger backcourt game that either of those guys (his net game was not quite as good). In fact, earlier in his career, he didn't come in that much aside from Wimbledon and some of the indoor tournaments. It was probably during the late 1990s after he had been working with Annacone for a few years that he served and volleyed more throughout the year.

Steve, I thought you were going to dump on Sampras's style of play entirely, until the end. I couldn't agree more about the potential effectiveness that could be had today with Sampras' kind of tennis.

One comment Sampras made after the first match was telling, and illustrated how potent his serve made the rest of his game. He made some remark about how it was his movement that suffered the most from lack of play, and age I suppose; it's that mid-court, almost tumbling over kind of volleying that's missing today, and at which Edberg and Rafter were so talented. Sampras was as well – you might even say he made his money with his low volley, since it dismantled so many otherwise potent returns of serve – but when you added Sampras' serve the effect was to give him a pass on a couple of volleys the Edbergs and Rafters of the tour couldn't afford to miss.

There are players today with serves that are all but as devastating as Sampras', and players who come in pretty often, but there's no one who can move and volley in the mid-court the way those players did. And there's no one who puts both things together.

You're so right, there could be. But *will* there be?

Steve, right up until the end I thought you were going to dump on Sampras's style of play entirely. I couldn't agree more about the potential effectiveness that could be had today with Sampras' kind of tennis.

One comment Sampras made after the first match was telling, and illustrated how potent his serve made the rest of his game. He made a remark about how it was his movement that suffered the most from lack of play, and age I suppose; it's that mid-court, almost tumbling over kind of volleying that's missing today, and at which Edberg and Rafter were so talented.

Sampras was as well – you might even say he made his money with his low volley, since it dismantled so many otherwise potent returns of serve – but when you added Sampras' serve the effect was to give him a pass on a couple of volleys the Edbergs and Rafters of the tour couldn't afford to miss.

There are players today with serves that are all but as devastating as Sampras', and players who come in pretty often, but there's no one who can move and volley in the mid-court the way those players did. And there's no one who puts both things together.

You're so right, there could be. But *will* there be?

Sorry, double post.

Must have been a different match I was watching.

Pete had much more of an all-court game than he was given credit for. I was reading an OLD presser from Agassi where he was saying that Sampras's speed was a disguised weapon..

'He wins with his serve, which he hits almost equally hard on first and second deliveries.'

Something which I have mentioned before about the Sampras game. It is also true that Sampras had a great back court game which is reflected in his earlier matches for example against Lendl at the '90 U.S. Open or the one against Edberg at the '92 U.S. Open.

First strike tennis is great, but

In men's tennis serve became the most important weapon. The return of serve evolved, but it's progress probably lagged the serve, but it is the second most important weapon.

Very generally speaking, on first serve players tend to win more than 50 percent of points ( by a fair margin ) and on second serve often times it is less than 50 percent.

Of course , other strokes have varying varying degrees of importance based on surface, matchup issues, playing style etc. Sampras excelled as he had a great all court game, it was difficult to break him and he played with a greater degree of freedom on his opponents serve.

At the same time , when compared to Federer, Sampras' records on slower hard courts/clay and the domination/consistency suffers. Inspite of having a relatively weaker serve compared to Pete, Federer has the better results over a four year period.

First strike tennis is effective in any era. The power of serve to start and end a point can be numbing.

Players like Goran, Isner, Karovic have monster serves - difference being Sampras had other facets of the game that made him a complete player.

", when compared to Federer, Sampras' records on slower hard courts/clay and the domination/consistency suffers. "

Federer has a better backcourt game, and his movement on clay is better that that of Sampras, who rarely seemed comfortable moving on that surface.

"it was difficult to break he played with a greater degree of freedom on his opponents serve"

Good point. It afforded him the opportunity to really go after his opponent's serve late in sets or at other crucial junctures. He would return aggressively off both wings. One of the best examples of this was the 1999 YEC final against Agassi, where he made it a point to tee off on Agassi's serve - quite a few clean winners that caught Agassi flatfooted, as well as forcing shots.

Dad, hunh? Now that you've said that, the photo looks like a guy and his dad at graduation, wearing academic robes.

Well, I've never seen Federer caught heading in the wrong direction so often -- whether that was his relaxed state or Sampras' hard-to-read volleys and serves, I don't know.

I only saw clips, but those of you who will be enjoying it first thing in the morning, enjoy! Happy Thanksgiving.

The talk of the good old days of S&V is getting exactly that: old.

A number of armchair coaches seem to fantasize that if there was just one good S&V player out there, he would tear up the tour these days. It's ridiculous how often we hear people say that, he needs to come to net more, attack, finish the point, blah blah blah.

But for those who really believe this, why do you think there's maybe a handful of true S&V players in the top 100 today? None in the top 10 or even 20? Maybe it's because these players, their coaches, their trainers, everyone around them are all idiots for missing out on this golden solution. Or maybe, just maybe they know something us armchair quarterbacks don't, maybe they're out there actually playing on these slower courts with ginormous rackets and players making passing shots on their ass 6 feet from the baseline, maybe that has something to do with it?

This isn't a chicken and egg thing, that style is gone because the conditions today simply no longer allow for it. The theory that nobody plays it because it isn't taught young is BS too. S&V didn't disappear overnight, like evolution, that style and those players slowly got weeded out by a new style that better suited the new conditions.

Besides, I for one don't miss those serve fest days, I actually like rallies that last more than 3 shots.

An interesting stat which I believe has not been analyzed enough is that often times, points won on first serve exceeds 50% and points won on second serve is less than 50% .

This shows the importance of the return of serve in tennis today and how these two strokes 'over rides' so to speak the other strokes in tennis.

Another way to look at it is - first serve gives the advantage to the server and second serve ( strange as it may sound ) to the returner !! If the returner gets a good strike, it is as if he is starting the point.

what match were you watching????
sampras was huffing and puffing while fed was being respectful and trying not to embarass the guy...by the way if fed 'was scrambling and rarely in control of the point', it was because he was not working at 60% of his potential out of respect for pete...i guess u would have preferred a 6-0, 6-0 drubbing of pete by fed, and then one can only imagine the comments in the ready for fed.....ummm, 'lack of respect', 'arrogant', bla-bla bla ---
take it for what it was -- a fun loving exhibition with a great current #1 showing a much deference to a former #1, nothing more nothing less....
by the way if u find today's types of matches boring relative to yestertear, that is an indication that just like ur posts, it is YOU who is boring! give me long lasting rallies, with great angles and hustles anyday, over some abrupt and truncated warm-up consisting of a single serve, a return shot and volley ending the point on three shots!

what match were you watching????
sampras was huffing and puffing while fed was being respectful and trying not to embarass the guy...by the way if fed 'was scrambling and rarely in control of the point', it was because he was not working at 60% of his potential out of respect for pete...i guess u would have preferred a 6-0, 6-0 drubbing of pete by fed, and then one can only imagine the comments in the ready for fed.....ummm, 'lack of respect', 'arrogant', bla-bla bla ---
take it for what it was -- a fun loving exhibition with a great current #1 showing a much deference to a former #1, nothing more nothing less....
by the way if u find today's types of matches boring relative to yestertear, that is an indication that just like ur posts, it is YOU who is boring! give me long lasting rallies, with great angles and hustles anyday, over some abrupt and truncated warm-up consisting of a single serve, a return shot and volley ending the point on three shots!

Fed played with his watch on... nuff said.

ANDRE..a lot of people was watching a different match from lame tignor!

"WERE"

It would be harder for Sampras or any other serve and volleyer to be No. 1 today. More and more players are used to returning huge serves, so the return gets to (or by) the net player faster than it ever has. With more powerful racquets and better strings, passing shots have more pace and spin on them. Serve and volleyers of the past would have less time to react today.

When I saw Roger wearing his Rolex this morning, I knew at once that he would be "playing" instead of there to play. I think that Roger was kind and gentle. His serve was soft, and for the most part, he waited for Pete to fault, rather than attempt to beat him. Periodically he appeared to forget himself and played an excellent point--only to grin sheepishly afterwards. Oops!!! I felt sorry for Pete, who was a shadow of his previous self. I was embarrassed for the commentator, who spoke as if what was happening on the court was a real match, a real challenge. Roger was gracious to allow Pete to maintain some degree of dignity; the crowds, although subdued, seemed to enjoy the match; the viewers had another opportunity to watch Roger and Pete in action. Everyone won, and it was fun. But folks, please let's not take the exhibition seriously! It was simply a good show.

what is the point of this 3 match exhibition? fed at full effort will throttle sampras. fed playing at about 75% effort holding back just enough to give the people there moneys worth. fed won 4 and 3 today all pete had was his serve. fed carrying the old man around the court, it is sad really. pete was a great champion but cmon this is a waste of time.

"It is also true that Sampras had a great back court game which is reflected in his earlier matches for example against Lendl at the '90 U.S. Open or the one against Edberg at the '92 U.S. Open."

Sampras certainly had a better baseline game than the strictest serve and volleyers. McEnroe, Edberg, Rafter, Cash, etc., were usually automatic dead ducks if they got caught in a baseline rally with a baseline bully on any surface. Sampras usually did just fine unless the rally started to last forever. But...let's not get carried away. There was a higher level of baseline play, otherwise he would have won the French. He never made a French final because his groundies didn't hold up when he absolutely needed them to.

Forewarned , this post is a lil geeky ....lol. It took an exhibition match to ponder on the importance of the Pete serve to his game, but listed below are serve related stats of Pete and Federer in their matches against Agassi.
---------------------------------------------------------------

An interesting stat of Sampras and Federer in their matches against Agassi.

1. Sampras leads Agassi 20-14 in their head to head series. When points won on second serve are considered , Agassi leads Sampras 22-8 (stats for 4 matches not available).

2. Federer leads Agassi 8-3 in their head to head series. When points won on second serve are considered , Federer leads Agassi 7-4 ( note Federer slips by one match, but compared to Sampras his stat looks better).

-----------------------------------------------------
Listed below are the number of matches and the percentage
of points won on first serve. (again , note stats not available for 4 matches for Pete-Andre)

Sampras Federer

90% - 100%, 2 , 0
80% - 89% , 15 , 2
70% - 79% , 8 , 6
60% - 69% , 5 , 3
-----------------------
30 matches 11 matches

------------------------------------------------

Percentge of points won on second serve and the number of matches

Sampras Federer

= 50%, 12, 7

--------------------------------------------------------------
Lastly, the difference between the percentage of points won on first and second serve is also greater for Pete.

This can be tricky, and Pete should not be penalized simply because he has the better first serve.

Example - Pete wins 90% on first serve and 40% on second serve, while Federer wins 80% on first serve and 40% on second serve.

On the face of it, looking 'only at the difference' would put Pete at a disadvantage because difference in his case (90% - 40% = 50 %) is greater than that for Federer ( 80% - 40% = 40 % )

.... the above example reflects Pete's superior serve, but importantly if the 'actual percentage' of points won on second serve is less for Pete ( not shown in the above example), then the 'difference' reflects on other aspects of the game.

Sorry for the bad readability .. correction on second serve.

Percentge of points won on second serve and the number of matches.

Sampras, Federer

Less than 50%, 18, 4
Greater than or equal to 50%, 12, 7

".... the above example reflects Pete's superior serve, but importantly if the 'actual percentage' of points won on second serve is less for Pete ( not shown in the above example), then the 'difference' reflects on other aspects of the game.''

Suresh, no smarter words have ever been posted on this board.

I watched this match at a bar last night with a few friends and the title GOAT WARS occurred to us spontaneously. Seeing it here made me laugh out loud.

"Sampras was less a classic serve-and-volleyer in the Edberg-Rafter vein than he was a server who also volleyed" - nail on the head; this can't be pointed out often enough for my liking.

Lucy: You were at a bar? ;-)

Suresh: Nice work with the stats.

'Twist serve' Will post the difference on second serve soon, but just wanted to say that blindly pointing out the difference between points won on first and second serve penalizes the stronger server.

While on this, something more to ponder on.....

Agassi leads Ferreira 10-0, Stich 6-0, Krajicek 4-3.

Sampras trails leads Ferreira 7-6, trails Stich 4-5, trails Krajicek 4-6.

The volume of data is large enough to infer the following perhaps.

1. That Sampras has the better serve when compared to Krajicek, Ferreira and Stich. ( importantly points won on FIRST serve).

Is that one reason why Agassi did well against the three but not against Pete? That Pete has a better first serve than he three playes mentioned?

Stich and Ferreira hated playing Agassi , but not Pete.
--------------------------------------------------------

2. Now Pete had close matches against the three players as the 'slight difference in first serve' did not matter as much because none of them returned like Agassi did.

More often than not, it was a crap shoot when Pete played the three.


-----------------------------------------------------------

3. While on this, the points won on second serve stat also stands out when Federer's game is compared to Nalbandian's.

All said and done, yes serve is an integral and very important part in men's game today, but closer analysis also explains match up issues ( a few, not all) or what happens when the serve is blunted one way or the other.

Serve can either be blunted by a slow surface or if 'both' players have a big serve with almost similar return games, then it's effect is neutralized in a different way .

Thanks Sam.

Aaaahhhhh let the nonsense flow.

1st I'll diesct Suresh......

Sampras-Agassi-Federer nonsense.....
1. How old was Agassi, and what was his playing level at when he played the two???
2. Was it only Sampras who trailed on 2nd serve pts vs Dre, or the majority of his opp??? If so why???
3. How did Pete far overall on 2nd serve pts won throughout his career???
Nice to see your still twisting th facts to distort thomasses. Try looing at the WHOLE picture.

Suresh and Twist Serve.....
From 92-96 Sampras lost to Agassi, Bruguera, Courier and Kafelnikov in Paris. 97 he fell ill before 3rd, and didn't do much from 98 onwards. He has also beaten Agassi,Vourier, Bruguera, Kafelnikov and Muster on caly....how when his groundies didn't hold up when they absolutely needed to???
Would you summize the same happened to Roger's groundstrokes when he was straight setted by Bo Jackson hipped Kuerten in 2004, or getting his ass handed to him 6-3,30 by Nalbandian before Da-veed got hurt.

And Steve...."(Sampras was less a classic serve-and-volleyer in the Edberg-Rafter vein than he was a server who also volleyed)";

Wow?!? In the open era I see Edberg, McEnroe, Rafte and Cash ahead of him in pure volleying abilty. But that's just me and far as your description of Pete's game get a time machine and head back to the '90's!!!!!!!!!!!


To those talking about Sampras huffing and puffing. I saw highlights, where Sampras could still serve, piled up numerous errors ff the ground, missing counless volleys..... and he was 36. Let me guess Fed was also taking it easy on borke back Agassi in '05 US Open F as well huh???

In 17 matches Sampras won more than 80% points on first serve against Agassi, while Federer in two matches against Andre.

If the serving percentage is let's say around 60%, a higher percentage of points are decided on a first serve, hence a lower winning percentage on second serve did not hurt Pete.

Suresh and more of his nonsense......

While on this, something more to ponder on.....

Agassi leads Ferreira 10-0, Stich 6-0, Krajicek 4-3.

Sampras trails leads Ferreira 7-6, trails Stich 4-5, trails Krajicek 4-6.

But NEVER nmention.....

AGASSI
5-7 vs Courier... Sampras 16-4
5-4 vs Muster.... Sampras 9-2
15-7 vs Chang(11-7 after Aug '90).... Sampras 12-8(12-3 after Aug '90)

So 2 questions Suresh
I. What does this tell us????
II. What the hell is your point????

Love how you twist facts.As for twist serve it's all in his name!!!!!

'He never made a French final because his groundies didn't hold up when he absolutely needed them to.'

Yes twist serve, Pete did have great matches on clay like in the Davis Cup against Russia, but not on a consistent basis.

Posted by As If 11/21/2007 @ 11:12 PM

Fed played with his watch on... nuff said.


Really. Was that why Fed was fully stretched out lunging for aces flying passe him, beimg wrong footed quite a few times, and was actively scrambling for balls and on occasions a full out sprint.

Oh how many slam titles did Stefan Edberg win while wearing a watch??? That's what I thought!!!!!!

hmmm Suresh i just thought of something, not to change the subject...were u good naturdely hassing me in July about being sure that Nadal was taking over from Federer and by year's end would be No. 1? I think we had a bet about it, if im not mistaken!

correct me if im wrong, i just had a flashback to post Wimby final dialogue :)

look anonmous, i saw the match,and sampras served well, but those first games were just half assed efforts trying to get the feel for the match and keep it jovial... anyone in the top300 is good enough to make Federe stretch for a serve or a big groundstroke, lets get real here..

i was let down overall with Sampras's level, i expected more, given all the seniors matches he has been winning... not to criiticize it must be very daunting to put himself on the line, but even more so for Federer.. talk about nothing to gain and evertyhing to lose (excpet for the cash of course)

Sounds like good fun, and that Pete still has - some - of his magic. Nice to read...

And I don't think Steve is trying to say that a serve and volleyer WOULD dominate the game... But that a very good one, such as Sampras was, still could.
I certainly wouldn't argue with the idea that Pistol Pete in his prime would be at least top 3 in the world today, though where in there is a bit hard to say.

Pete Sampras and the Williams sisters - brilliantly talented players who through an unfortunate combination of factors (technique, equipment, surfaces, and yes personality) made millions literally switch off tennis...

Thank God for Saint Roger.

It all seemed vaguely embarrassing.I think probably best left in Pete's backyard.With a 50% Federer who was playing gentle forehands in order to assist his older exo partner.
Yeah Pete has not aged well compared to Mac,Courier and Aggassi.Wouldnt take Fed long to work out this guy and consign him to the chasing pack.

"I don’t think I’d realized how cookie-cutter the sport had gotten until watching (Sampras) today."

Watching serve-and-volleyers has its plusses and minuses, but the important point that Steve makes is that everyone in today's game plays a variation of the same style. Sampras perfected what I call PPP (Pure Power Player). Becker began that trend, in that he was a big server who could volley well and possessed extremely groundstrokes. Other examples include Philippoussis, Krajicek, Ivanisevic, Rusedski and Stich. These players varied in certain abilities, but all of them sought not to rally, not wear down their opponents, and not even so much to put themselves in the best position at net. Their goal on every point was to hit winners.

In the 90s this style was everywhere. You also had the last gasp of serve-and-volley (Rafter & Henman), a few counterpunchers (Chang & Corretja) and, of course, power-baseliners.

Today, virtually everyone plays power baseline tennis. Serve-and-volley's demise is well-documented, but the only active players who could be considered PPPs are Ljubicic, Ancic, Karlovic, Joachim J., Mikhail Youzhny and John Isner. None of these players were in Shanghai, only two are currently in the top 20, and only a few are likely to ever finish a year in the top 10. Roddick has attempted to play this way, adding a net-rushing mentality to his game, but his forehand is too western, his backhand less capable of hitting winners consistently, and his volleys are rarely better than servicable.

Counterpunchering also is a dying art. Nadal some has the characteristics of one, but his forehand (and possibily backhand) is so brutal that he has to be considered a PB'er. Perhaps Davydenko could be considered one, but the way he drives his groundstrokes they ought to be considered weapons. Perhaps only Hewitt and Nalbandian are true counterpunchers, since they rely more on consistency and deflecting the pace of the other player, but they have far more offense in their games than Wilander or Borg did.

There are some benefits to the predominance of powerful groundstrokes: it seems there are more shots worthy of the highlight reel in every match than there were when Krajicek and Rusedski were around.

However, the excitement of watching a contrast in styles is gone. As great as Federer is, this may have contributed to his dominance. Sampras had to figure out how to play multiple types of opponents. These days, Federer need only be able beat one type of player the vast majority of the time.

Is there a particular reason to be insulted by someone else's opinion here, or insult another poster for their opinion?

It should be remembered that Tignor signs his real name to his words, unlike most of us, and does the heavy lifting in hosting the site.

A lot of folks forgot their meds today.

One more thing: Federer would have to be considered the first player to amalgamate all those previously mentioned styles into his game. If there was more variety in the game, I'm sure he'd still be the best, but I doubt he'd be in position to break Sampras' record at age 26.

I agree with Skip1515 -- it's easier to respect the views of people who don't deliberately remain anonymous on the site, never mind Steve, who puts his opinion out there regularly to the extent of predicting the flow of whole tournaments.

So, as Skip says -- take your meds, guys.

Suresh -- I like the geeky stuff, but please: don't lump Isner and Karlovic with Ivanisevic. Karlovic has never been top 20, Isner has never even been top 100! Saying Ivanesivic just had a serve makes it seem like you don't know the game at all. Ivanisevic got to number 2 in the world. He was top 10 for TEN years (or more?). His success rate was hugely affected by being an exact contemporary of Sampras and Agassi.

LOl Tim...hmmm, You must be mistaken :)
Must be someone else.

In a recent interview when asked about challenging for the number one position, Nadal said that he would worry more about the players behind him. This is not to say that he does not have an eye on the numero uno position.

With the injury problems that Nadal has it will be interesting to see how his body holds up in the long run. Also, other players might start winning more, thereby cutting into both Federer's and Nadal's points.

Steve, I have really enjoyed reading your last few posts.

I consider Sampras and Federer to be equals, because they both dominated their sport during the time they played, and you can't ask any more than that.

The other thing is, no one ever solved either one of them. Sampras played his own game throughout his career. When he left, the game changed, but it wasn't in response to Sampras. I am not saying he won every match, but no one actually found an answer to the way he played.

And I think the same is true of Federer. Will people change the way they play after he passes from the scene? Or will tennis just continue on however it continues on, and we will look back on him as some kind of phenomenon?

I see Sampras as a power player. He had a menacing presence on the court, like he always seemed to be lurking and conserving energy. But he could overpower anyone, and not just with one of his strokes, with the whole way he could explode in a match.

To me Federer is about speed. He can materialize anywhere on the court, and he can get off a shot in no time. And I think he plays with more spin than Sampras did.

But one final note, what do you think about Federer's serve? In the Masters Cup, I thought something clicked for him. When you serve 94% for first serves in a set, and 84% for a match, that isn't just a fluke. And he kept it up for the last three matches he played. I think something fell into place for Federer, it might have been just a slight adjustment, like where he places his toss. But he was banging the serve past people on a consistent basis. If he keeps that, it will really help him for the next few years.

How much are these players making for these matches?

Nora,

I call it the 'halo effect' that every player tends to develop.

Isner, Karlovic and Goran all had monster serves and their game reflected on how much they depended on it. Of course , Goran's career undoubtedly was more impressive, but his record at the other majors is not as impressive compared to that in Wimbledon

Goran played Pete once outside Wimbledon at the U.S. Open and never played Agassi at the majors outside Wimbledon.

Goran finished in the top ten 6 times - in '90, '92, '93, '94, '95 and '96.

His performance at majors other than Wimbledon listed below.

Aus Open - 3 quarter final appearancesout of 11.

1. '89 - Mecir in straight sets in quarters (Goran was bagelled one set).
2. '90 - Wheaton in first round in straight sets(again he was bagelled in one set).
3. '91 - Goran Ppric in third round in straight sets.
4. '92 - Krickstein in second round in straight sets.
Did not play in '93
5. '94 - Courier in quarters in straight sets.
6. '95 - Carl-Uwe Steeb in first round in straight sets.
7. '96 - Renzo Furlan in 3rd round in 4 sets.
8. '97 - Muster in quarters in straight sets.
9. '98 - Siemerink in 1st round in 4 sets.
10. '00 - Clavet in 2nd round in straight sets.
11. '02 - Golmard in 2nd round in straight sets.
---------------------------------------------------------

At U.S. Open - one semis in 13 appearances . No quarters.

1. '89 - Jim Grabb in 2nd round in straight sets.
2. '90 - Cahill in 3rd round in 5 sets ( bagelled in last set).
3. '91 - Lendl in 4th round in 4 sets.
4. '92 - Volkov in 3rd round in straight sets (bagelled in 2nd set).
5. '93 - arlos Costa in 2nd round in straight sets.
6. '94 - Martin Zoecke in 1st round in 4 sets.
7. '95 - Steven Brett in 1st round (retd when leading 2 sets to 1).
8. '96 - Sampras in semis in 4 sets.
9. '97 - Dinu Pescariu in 1st round in 4 sets.
10. '98 - Rafter in 4th round in 4 sets.
11. '99 - Kuerten in 3rd round in straight sets.
12. '00 - Hrbaty in 1st round in 4 sets.
13. '01 - Albert Costa in 1st round in straight sets.
----------------------------------------------------------

French Open - reached quarters 3 times in 12 attempts.

1. '89 - Edberg in 4th round in straight sets.
2. '90 - Muster in quarters in 4 sets.
3. '91 - Haarhius in 2nd round in straight sets.
4. '92 - Courier in 4th round in 4 sets.
5. '93 - Costa in 3rd round in 4 sets.
6. '94 - Berasategui in quarters in straight sets.
7. '95 - Tillstrom in 1st round in straight sets.
8. '96 - Karbcher in 4th round in straight sets.
9. '97 - Gustafsson in 1st round in 4 sets.
10. '98 - Martelli in 1st round in straight sets.
11. '99 - Arazi in 1st round in 4 sets.
12. '00 - Costa in 1st round in straight sets.


roger does not wear his watch for "real" matches.

"However, the excitement of watching a contrast in styles is gone. "

I agree, Rob. But you consider Youzhny a PPP? He doesn't seem to fit in with the others you mentioned.

The point of these exhibitions is entertainment. If you want a second point, it's putting some extra cash in the pockets of two guys who are already fairly well taken care of.

If that isn't enough, the next value measure is friendship and goodwill between the two players.

Only at the bottom of the list do we get to the "result" of the match. And the only "result" which would have had any consequence would have been three straight sets wins for Sampras, which wasn't going to happen because neither player would have allowed it to happen.

A bonus from the exhibition is a reminder of the playing style/strategy employed by Sampras (let's say serve/power) vs the Federer style/strategy (power baseliner).

Trying to deduce anything about the merits of these styles in competition is like trying to place Arthur Miller in the pantheon of playwrights while watching thirteen year olds put on "The Crucible." You can do it, but I wouldn't trust the answers. :-)

Andrew, I might trust the answer if the kids mounted Springtime For HItler, back to back with The Crucible, and *then* you asked me who was the better playwright, Miller or Liebkind. :)

"I think he plays with more spin than Sampras did. "

Federer's racquet-head speed is amazing, especially on the forehand. It's interesting watching the forehands of both players - Sampras doesn't swing through it as quickly but hits a heavy ball, whereas Federer whips through it with tremendous spin and pace.

skip: Well said it your 7:24.

I've watched both matches.

In the first match, both players played pretty sloppy. Pete missed a ton of balls and I could tell (from watching Roger at the Master's Cup), Roger played at maybe 70% full thottle or less. Many of the passing shots were hit right where Pete's 'hitting zone' was and he still missed them. Roger even said that he hope the next match will show better tennis.

OK... next match today:

The next match today did show better tennis. Roger also said the courts were "super fast" so you know the courts helped Pete's serve and his first serve was fantastic. In fact, he was not broken at all today but still lost in 2 sets.

My thoughts about Pete is that in any one match, Pete could really press some of the players today with that serve on a fast court, but Pete's mobility and defense are not there so he would have a hard time competing day in and day out; hence, that's why he said he has no desire to come back.

But the exhibition matches are doing what they were intended to do - get more excitment about tennis after the season and more interest over in the Asian markets.

Someone commented on the empty seats during the first match. When the TV show first came on - there were empty seats, but if you looked at the seats during the match - it was full. Same thing today - over 10,000 were in attendance and it seemed like they were really enjoying the match. So both Roger and Pete accomplished what they intended - great tennis and good matches.

I have enjoyed seeing Pete back on the court - but I also have enjoyed seeing some great shots by Roger (when he forgets that he's not suppose to be going 100%)....like that drop shot he hit on Pete today and then appologized for hitting it.

Great stuff...

From viewpoint: [That even today the most “beautiful”—in other words, the most stylishly correct—strokes can end up producing the most explosive, the most powerful, the best game. He puts the aesthetic together with the practical, and makes power tennis look traditional—it’s a kind of platonic ideal for the sport (told you I was going to reach).]

Thanks, that's exactly what I think.

"But you consider Youzhny a PPP? He doesn't seem to fit in with the others you mentioned."

I suppose he could also be considered a PB'er, since he's less reliant on serving or volleying and more so on his backhand. Had they started playing a decade ago, I think he and Paradorn S. would have been much more interested in coming to net than they are today.

Thanks for all the good thoughts and stats. I am going to watch the third one alive in Macau and am very excited indeed. I do not know Sampras for I started watching after he retired. But I feel so lucky to be able to see them both while I still can.

One day I can tell my children that I have watched them.
Yippeee!!

Thanks for all the good thoughts and stats. I am going to watch the third one alive in Macau and am very excited indeed. I do not know Sampras for I started watching after he retired. But I feel so lucky to be able to see them both while I still can.

One day I can tell my children that I have watched them.
Yippeee!!

Rob: I was thinking of Youzhny as more of a PB'er, for the reasons you mentioned.

chieko: That's great that you'll be able to see the Macau match in person. Enjoy!

Steve - Thanks for your thoughts on these exhibitions - love to know what you thought of the match played on Thanksgiving morning. I think Pete looks pretty darned good, for his age/retirement status.

Posted by Suresh 11/22/2007 @ 9:22 AM

Nora,

I call it the 'halo effect' that every player tends to develop.

Isner, Karlovic and Goran all had monster serves and their game reflected on how much they depended on it. Of course , Goran's career undoubtedly was more impressive, but his record at the other majors is not as impressive compared to that in Wimbledon

Goran played Pete once outside Wimbledon at the U.S. Open and never played Agassi at the majors outside Wimbledon.

Goran finished in the top ten 6 times - in '90, '92, '93, '94, '95 and '96.

His performance at majors other than Wimbledon listed below.

Aus Open - 3 quarter final appearancesout of 11.

1. '89 - Mecir in straight sets in quarters (Goran was bagelled one set).
2. '90 - Wheaton in first round in straight sets(again he was bagelled in one set).
3. '91 - Goran Ppric in third round in straight sets.
4. '92 - Krickstein in second round in straight sets.
Did not play in '93
5. '94 - Courier in quarters in straight sets.
6. '95 - Carl-Uwe Steeb in first round in straight sets.
7. '96 - Renzo Furlan in 3rd round in 4 sets.
8. '97 - Muster in quarters in straight sets.
9. '98 - Siemerink in 1st round in 4 sets.
10. '00 - Clavet in 2nd round in straight sets.
11. '02 - Golmard in 2nd round in straight sets.
---------------------------------------------------------

At U.S. Open - one semis in 13 appearances . No quarters.

1. '89 - Jim Grabb in 2nd round in straight sets.
2. '90 - Cahill in 3rd round in 5 sets ( bagelled in last set).
3. '91 - Lendl in 4th round in 4 sets.
4. '92 - Volkov in 3rd round in straight sets (bagelled in 2nd set).
5. '93 - arlos Costa in 2nd round in straight sets.
6. '94 - Martin Zoecke in 1st round in 4 sets.
7. '95 - Steven Brett in 1st round (retd when leading 2 sets to 1).
8. '96 - Sampras in semis in 4 sets.
9. '97 - Dinu Pescariu in 1st round in 4 sets.
10. '98 - Rafter in 4th round in 4 sets.
11. '99 - Kuerten in 3rd round in straight sets.
12. '00 - Hrbaty in 1st round in 4 sets.
13. '01 - Albert Costa in 1st round in straight sets.
----------------------------------------------------------

French Open - reached quarters 3 times in 12 attempts.

1. '89 - Edberg in 4th round in straight sets.
2. '90 - Muster in quarters in 4 sets.
3. '91 - Haarhius in 2nd round in straight sets.
4. '92 - Courier in 4th round in 4 sets.
5. '93 - Costa in 3rd round in 4 sets.
6. '94 - Berasategui in quarters in straight sets.
7. '95 - Tillstrom in 1st round in straight sets.
8. '96 - Karbcher in 4th round in straight sets.
9. '97 - Gustafsson in 1st round in 4 sets.
10. '98 - Martelli in 1st round in straight sets.
11. '99 - Arazi in 1st round in 4 sets.
12. '00 - Costa in 1st round in straight sets.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now for the haunting truth......

Explain this....
Davydenko..... 18 of 27(slam appearances gone in 1st 3rds - high as #3
Robredo..... 18 of 26 slam appearances gone in 1st 3 rds - high as #5
Blake...... 18 of 23 slam appeaaces gone in 1st week (only 2 QF) - high as #4
Ljubicic..... 27 of 33 slam appearances gone in 1st 2 rds (one SF and one QF) - high as #3
Gonzalez...... 5 of 21 slam appearances gone in 1st 3 rds - high as #5
Coria..... 11 of 19 slam appearances gone in 1st 3 rds - high as #3
Gaudio..... 27 of 31 slams appearances gone in 1st 3 rds - high as #5
Ferrer...... 16 of 20 slam appearances gone in 1st 3rds - high as #5

All in top 10 during Roger's reign as #1 for "significant" periods of time.

Note Gonzales 16 of 21 slam appearances gone out in 1st 3 rds!!!!

anothe boring exo between two massive egoists. yaaaawwwwn.

""anothe boring exo between two massive egoists. yaaaawwwwn.""

This guy above is a moron. Youre the one with the ego dick, get over yourself.

hey anon- keep trying bud to denigrate roger, it isn't working. no one is buying it.

"Now for the haunting truth" - the truth being, I take it, that the depth of competition in Federer's era is so great that people with high rankings have consistently been knocked out early. Very believable. Not QUITE sure what is so haunting about it....

Steve 'He wins with his serve, which he hits almost equally hard on first and second deliveries. On his opponent’s serve he goes for a winner every time he gets a look at a forehand.'

This line captures the essence of Pete's game. In any case, the few stats I posted earlier on this forum reflects that.

These exhibition matches are a great value for entertainment. The second one in Malaysia was played on a faster court, and it showcased Pete's strength, but at the same time analysis of the 'hit and giggle' variety of tennis in not fair to both - Federe and Pete.

It is great just to see that both are willing to play in front of fans - one at the end of a season and the other willing to travel during the holiday period.

In the second match Pete did show more of his personality - when he drawled 'lets get it oonnn' and was doing a jig after a good point. He even picked his derriere and flexed his muscle . lol

Pete still has a lot left. I wouldn't be surprised to see him take down a top 5 player nowadays. His serve is such a weapon and his attacking style takes away a lot. When Roger plays Roddick, he gets most of the serves back, but against Pete, he has a harder time it seems. You can't tell me that Roger isn't trying in these exhibitions. He is surely trying. He may not have that mentality that it takes to win on tour, but he is trying.

Sampras' thoughts on Fed:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/tennis/11/23/sampras.predicts.ap/index.html

" I think Roger is dominating the game much more than I ever did. I think he's going to go on and past 14 and win 16, 17, 18 majors."

Sampras said at a news conference he thought Federer would remain No. 1 a "very, very long time." Federer has won 12 Grand Slams titles, two short of Sampras' mark.

"I think he's going to break all records," Sampras said.

Posted by sally 11/23/2007 @ 2:33 PM

hey anon- keep trying bud to denigrate roger, it isn't working. no one is buying it.


Hon are you mad cuz I'm speaking the truth??? Does it burn your soul like ether??? Please don't get upset with me cuz I call a rose a rose, get upset with me for something else.


Posted by grendel 11/23/2007 @ 4:31 PM

"Now for the haunting truth" - the truth being, I take it, that the depth of competition in Federer's era is so great that people with high rankings have consistently been knocked out early. Very believable. Not QUITE sure what is so haunting about it....

Hhhmmmmm the depth is so great that the top 10 are that bad that consistently???? So the players down 40,50 down the line are that great. Good to see Fed does what they are doing.

Yeah Roger is great, but be real, there's not a lot around him. His main rival has never played a slam semi on a hardcourt??? What way do you choose to take that.

remain anonymous,

thank you.

I'm enjoying your spirited and well-detailed opposition.

It's clear as a bell: An old Agassi gave Federer more problems in his prime than a prime Agassi gave a prime Sampras, especially at the U.S. Open. Don't remember Sampras letting Agassi sniff a fifth set or a win at Flushing Meadows.

Nothing against Federer, but he only wins on Germanic clay, with one title in Switzerland. And while he's reached two French finals, he's not beaten any top clay-courters on the way. And anyone who could play on the stuff like Corretja, Kuerten and Nadal, have crushed him there. And he faced Moya with a bad shoulder. Mantilla, Medvedev, Albert Costa, Bruguera, Squillari ... the old guard handled this guy.

Yeah, Federer's great, but there's no need to downgrade Pete or the time period in which he played.

The things I found so interesting about the matches was how accurate petes serve and forehand where.

I think people only see the power rather than the combination.

Roddicks got far more power, but would he do better with a touch less and greater accuracy.

The reason I posted Goran's stats was an earlier poster did not agree with clubbing him with other big servers which is fair enough.

At the same time, his performance at majors outside of Wimbledon signifies the importance of serve to his game.

Secondly, in the 90's internet was not big and hence every match was not analyzed and dissected like it is happening now.

The legend of a player tends to grow with each passing year, and certain facts attributed to Goran were not correct which was what I was highlighting.

As far as the depth in competition is concerned between the Pete and the Federer era, perhaps not much else can be used as a cornerstone of argument.

Sam, thanks for posting the link.

Yes, Federer does have a more dominant period. Will be interesting to see how long he can keep this up.

Sam, thanks for posting the link.

Yes, Federer does have a more dominant period. Will be interesting to see how long he can keep this up.

Sorry for the double post, blame it on the vagaries of my old computer ... lol

Pete was my favorite for a long time and I still love the way he plays the game. In my mind, he plays like a man (take it for what it is worth).

And, I just woke up in the middle of the night, turned on Tennis Channel to see Pete up 7-6, 3-4. Was too curious to turn it off and saw Pete break Roger and serve it out. Not too shabby.

No doubt his serve was too much for Roger on this fast court. He has served amazingly the 2nd and 3rd matches.

Do I think Pete is better than Roger or even was better than Roger? No, not all around and certainly not on the slower courts of today. But on fast courts, Pete could handle himself against anyone, any day.

I thought he was serving as well as he did the last two years on tour and maybe volleying better. Someone said he got beat by Ginepri in exos last year. I saw the first one on slow red clay and he held his own, losing a close match. It was his first match in public in 4 years and on his worst surface. He was rusty and uncertain, but showed glimpses. These last two matches against Roger, he let it flow.

Was Roger playing top shelf? No. He never does in exos. But he did not want to lose his serve and not be able to break there at the end and he could not pull it off. Sampras playing with house money took it to him.

Got to give the old man credit.

Yes, Roger was in a no-win situation. Kind of like the times when my wife took a college course I was teaching. Could not give my wife a C, that would be cruel. If she got an A, that was favoritism. A sane man would not get into such a situation. And Roger could not beat up on Pete or lose to him. But, Pete was playing a bit too well for Roger to simply pull strings all the time as it turned out.

Keep in mind that Pete is about the same age as Bjorkman and Santoro and many playing doubles at Shanghai. And no one of those players has his serve and ability to follow it to the net.

No one else seems to respond to my desire to see Roger and Pete play doubles a couple of times, such as Indian Wells. I would not bet against them.

Springtimge for Hilter/The Crucible, Hendrix, and Joseph Campbell make recent list appearances. Love the cerebral tennis!

Springtime for Hilter/The Crucible, Hendrix, and Joseph Campbell make recent list appearances. Love the cerebral tennis!

Remain Anonymous:

Why #40 - 50? What's that got to do with it? You listed 8 players. Practically, in any case, none of this makes any difference. You cannot gauge relative strengths in this way, it is statistical ignorance to imagine you can - there are too many variables involved.

Meanwhile, this is John McEnroe two and a half years ago:" I just think that there is more depth in the game today than there was in Sampras’s era”. (The context, by the way, was McEnroe explaining why he didn't think Federer would catch Sampras in number of Wimbledon titles won). Of course, since McEnroe made this comment, the standard has become immeasureably higher.

Naturally, you don't have to agree with McEnroe. I suggest it would be sensible at least to take him seriously.

These exhibition matches were geared to help Pete in any way possible: (1) Played at the end of the year - after Roger had finished being in his 'match-tough' mode; (2) played on the fastest surface they can find.

Pete's serve was cooking....but honestly - name one official ATP tour tournament where the courts are as fast as they were in these exhibition matches? That's what I thought! There are none. So Pete's serve was cooking on a surface like he had in these exhibition matches, but I bet his serve could still be returned on a regular ATP tour surface (even grass!).

There were several (even most) tournaments played on surfaces like these exhibition matches in Pete's day, that's why you only saw "serve/volley/winner" over and over, and no rallies. Then the tour decided that these fast courts were really killing tennis because there were no rallies so they slowed the conditions by using heavy balls and slower surfaces.

Now a days, I think they've slowed the court too slow! Even grass! Now no one can do the serve/volley type tennis because they would be passed 90 out of 100 times up at the net if they truly did 'true' serve/volley tennis. I called a lot of the hard court tennis "purple clay" or "blue clay" because even though it was on hard courts - these played as slow as clay.

So, if Pete was back on tour today - in the conditions of today's tournaments - I don't think his serve would be as dominate as it was when he was on tour playing on those super fast surfaces.

I also read on one site that the victory today showed that Pete is still the best player out there today! I had to laugh at that! Even Pete told those over-eager fans to "hold on and don't take too much into this victory". But they didn't listen.

Just a thought: If those fans think Pete's the best player out there still today, why isn't he playing in the Davis Cup final? lol!

Let Pete enjoy his win but don't take anything away from Roger. He has proven that he is the best player today regardless of what happened in these exhibitions. If we went by exhibition results - I guess Roddick wouldn't be on that long losing streak with Roger either since he won in Kooyong last year in an Exhibition against Roger! lol!

If Pete had not one at least one of these matches, where would the interest be when they play in New York next year?

FoT,

Mature and reasoned perspective.

I hope they can find a better balance of court speed. Something is wrong when the USOpen is faster than Wimbledon.

They could go back to previous speed and go back to the old foot fault rule (stay behind the line and no jumping), not sure why they changed that rule), speed up the balls and maybe we would have balance.

You are right about returning serve. Today's bigger rackets and string technology allows returners who merely get their racket on the ball to get a tough ball to handle back to any would-be server.

I know the balls are less lively than when I was young because I used to be able to kick serves over returners' rackets (with wood rackets) and I was far from as strong as today's players. Ironically golf is being ruined and courses made obselete due to hotter balls.

Major league baseball players continue to use wood bats whereas colleges use aluminum ones. If major leaguers used aluminum bats, they would kill or maim some pitchers and third basemen with lined shots (and probably more fans). Today's players are too good to allow them to use rackets that do a lot of work for them. Don Budge used to play with a wooden racket that weighed 14+ ounces.

And the modern grips help a lot. When I started, we almost could not maintain a grip on hot summer days (leather). It is wonderful to play with today's grips. They are a true advantage, but fair to all players.

FoT, with all due respect, the courts at these exos weren't any faster than what the tour uses indoors in Sweden now, and faster than the regulation indoor tour courts of the 90's. Having been lucky enough to be at Wimbledon and the USOpen within the past few years, I assure you the courts at the USOpen aren't faster than the grass, though the bounce is always true, unlike the grass. And the ball still stands up more on the hard courts than it does on grass.

If s&v tennis were as bankrupt a concept as many make it out to be, Kendrick would never have been able to come so close to beating Nadal two years ago. Sure, sure, Kendrick didn't win, he faded away in that match; his tactics didn't fail, he did. The success of Karlovic is tough to explain away, as well. Kendrick wasn't passed 90 times out of 100, and neither is Karlovic (even with his less than all-time-great volleying and movement).

Sampras showed that his style of tennis can still be successful. I don't for a minute believe him better, today, than Federer, but his tennis clearly had the potential to be effective for a real match were he 26 and not 36.

What's missing are players who know how to play this way, and who've been doing it since they were juniors. I'm no armchair coach dreaming of days past. I still coach and share a good bit of back and forth with other coaches. At the same time I'm not predicting that a s&v player would rule the roost, only that a player who took the net at every legitimate opportunity, behind quality serving and intelligent approaches, who knew where to stand and what shots to hit, and who wasn't fazed by being passed, could have success on today's tour.

Tell Pete Sampras that every time he comes in, dropping the ball within 1 foot of the baseline, that the guy passing was going to hit from 6' behind the baseline, and I bet he'd place serious money on his winning that match.

Then he'd take your cash.

Robin, I agree that Pete and Federer will make a great doubles combo. I am definitely curious to see how they would perform on the doubles tour.

Both can relax, have fun and I am sure it will be fun for the fans too.

Thanks, Suresh, for that response about doubles.

And, as the Canadians say, "Bang on," skip1515. Good analysis.

Sampras' game is lethal! Designed to win. I think it's clear that a Sampras in his prime would be at the top 1-2 players in the world. So few other players' games are designed to be lethal. (Graf?)

Serve and volley might have a role to play in today's tennis - in that any player with a great all court game and volleying skills will definitely make his presence felt.

At the same time players like Kendrick and Karlovic can certainly perform well on grass - thanks to their serve.

Volleying by itself is a style that lends itself to a higher percentage game as opposed to a passing shot that can be a lower percentage shot.

The important thing is which 'pattern of play' has a higher margin for error considering today's equipment and surfaces.

In the 70's for example neither the serve nor the return of serve was as dominating as it is today. The speed of the ball travelling in the air was less , and volleying was an effective way to take time away from the opponent.

The power component slowly took over in the 80's and players like McEnroe first and then Rafter, Edberg , Martin etc. are on record stating how volleying became more difficult.

To maintain a judicious balance between reducing the potency of the serve and allowing for volleys to work as a viable option can be tricky.

A monster first serve will probably work on any surface. In the 90's or more so in the 80's a second serve may not have elicited the kind of service return as often when compared to what is generated today (ok other than a few players like Agassi, Lendl etc.)

The volley does not require a complete swing of the racquet - it is more of a punch and it is here that a slower surfaces does not help volleying as the surface probably factors in more in slowing the volley down. Also in making the ball sit up.

On the other hand, the faster speed of the ball in the air has helped the groundies. If the first volley is not struck well enough, then the chances for a pass are that much increased.

At a moderately fast court like the U.S. Open for example, a monster serve will certainly help a volleyer - example Isner. On the other hand, a player with an average serve has to work the ball around instead of blindly coming in behind a serve to make volleying a viable option.

Playing style lags the changes in equipment. Changes in equipment which drives business is here to stay. Players learm which style is better or 'easier' to incorporate. Changes in surface then follow to find a suitable middle ground.

I mentioned this monthe before on this forum - does anyone remember 'paddle tennis' which was shown in the 2006 Vegas tournament? I think Monfils won that tournament. Tennis courts were smaller ( slightly wider than the Monfils' wing span!) , a big fuzzy ball was used which considerably slowed down the pace of the game.

Points were not won from the baseline by a groundstroke winner. Serving was considered a liability in paddle tennis !! A volley was the only way to end a point - other than unforced/forced errors of course.

Sure the above is an extreme example, but the game in the 60's and 70's were slower compared to today and volleying was an effective way to take time away from the opponent.

Another interesting point to ponder on - in today's game we all know that a first serve wins more than 50% of the points - closer to 70, 80 or even 90%.

On the other hand, a winning player often times wins less than 50% points on second serve. Now, I am not sure if this happens in more than 50 percent of the matches, but statistically speaking if that were to be the case, then it merely shows that the serve and return of serve are the two most important strokes in tennis.

Again, this is a stat which on first look seems to happen pretty often - without going into details like surfaces, players/opponents etc.

Suresh, I agree: the average tour player has much better groundstrokes than their counterpart 20 or 30 years ago. Probably better than 15 years ago, too, but that's not the point.

Karlovic had success this year on surfaces that were decidedly not grass, most especially Houston, on clay (Har-Tru?), where he beat Benjamin Becker, Haas, Montanes and Zabaleta.

My point here is not that Karlovic is going to be top 10 in the world, just that he plies his s&v style successfully on a variety of surfaces, and well enough to post wins over players who have their best success on slower surfaces.

I'd suggest that a monster serve isn't a prerequisite for an effective, accurate serve is. Bjorkman, at 35 #52 in the world, is a good example, as Roddick is of the obverse.

Too big a serve and you can't get in behind it. Too weak volleying and court sense and you blow the opening a serve or approach have created.

What is required besides the serve is the mid-court movement and volleying, and knowing how to pry errors from your opponent by pressuring them time and again with having to hit a passing shot. Is it tough? Yes. Impossible? I say No.

When you wrote, "Players learm which style is better or 'easier' to incorporate," I thought immediately of all the kids playing the juniors, and their coaches whose income depends on those kids' success. It's easier to incorporate steady groundstrokes today at a young age, and given that most kids can't cover the lob real well, and that volleying takes longer to learn than groundies, it's no surprise that most players today are weak at the net.

Watch Djokovic. Surely he has the talent to volley well, as well as anyone else with the same equipment, same balls, same courts and same shots coming at him. He's unsure of himself in the fore court because he hasn't spent as much time there as players used to years ago. If he had he wouldn't be rushing to the net madly every point, but the fact remains that the teaching of tennis has also followed the path of the style that's easier to incorporate.

"If Pete had not one at least one of these matches, where would the interest be when they play in New York next year?"

FoT:

I hadn't thought about that. Promoters would have a harder time selling a let's-watch-Federer-beat-Sampras-in-61-minutes-again match in New York exhibition.

Robin Pratt:

You make so many smart posts. I love the doubles idea. I hope it has crossed the minds of Federer and Sampras. If they were to play Indian Wells, Sampras wouldn't even have to travel.

Just catching up on this thread, Robin, skip, and Suresh - excellent discussion.

Robin: The new AO surface may also be faster than Wimbledon (it's supposed to be similar to the US Open surface. Also, I like your idea about Sampras and Federer playing doubles.

"In my mind, he plays like a man (take it for what it is worth). "

Because of the one-handed backhand, Robin? :-)

"What is required besides the serve is the mid-court movement and volleying"

skip: Glad you brought up movement. Some of the players that were metioned (Kendrick and Karlovic) are not great movers. The great volleyers (Edberg, Rafter, etc) moved well. As Edberg said - "90% of my volleying is done with my legs".

Skip , My earlier post at 4:15 touches upon this point. Like an electron, a human being tends to take the path of least resistance . lol

Basically the gist is volleying has become more difficult today, yet there is a place for it in today's game , but not in the classical sense.

1. 'the average tour player has much better groundstrokes than their counterpart 20 or 30 years ago. Probably better than 15 years ago, too, but that's not the point.'

I feel the average player epitomizes the trend, whereas an exceptional player or a great player ( does not reflect the trend) can use all aspects of the game to rise above the masses so to speak.

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2. On why volleying has become progressively more difficult thru' the 90's.

Martin in a recently aired interview on the tennis channel mentioned that he had to wait for a more opportune moment to come to the net later in his career as players improved on their ground strokes. Players like Henman, Raft