Peter Bodo's TennisWorld - Lindsay, in Full Bloom
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Lindsay, in Full Bloom 03/04/2008 - 5:22 PM

The way she tells it, Lindsay Davenport wasn't exactly sobbing on Sunday as she said good-bye to her husband, Jon Leach, and their son, Jagger, at the airport in Memphis. But it was touch-and-go for a few moment there. After all, the 48-plus hour span (it's almost over now, as Lindsay is homeward bound as I post this) is the longest time Lindsay has been away from her 8-month old son.

Gals "It was pretty funny," Lindsay told me at a luncheon and press conference promoting Juvederm, an injectable "dermal filler" and de facto anti-aging product (more about that later). "I never thought of myself as one who would be crying at an airport, but I was pretty emotional when I walked John and Jagger to their gate to help them get on board.

"Actually, John got all mad at me, he was like, 'Lindsay, I've been on a plane a million times, what are you doing?' "  Lindsay laughed. "So after seeming them off I went to my gate and put my feet up. I realized I had nothing to do but relax and I was like, Hmmmmm, this is pretty nice!"

It was good to see Lindsay in person for the first time in many months. I don't think she's ever looked better. You may remember that she always looked soft -  almost the anti-thesis of a toned athlete like Justine Henin or Elena Dementieva. And she was naturally loose-limbed (the opposite of, say, Maria Sharapova). Now Lindsay is lean and nothing less than swan-like. She's still limber and tall, but gangly has morphed into graceful, and she's poised and seemingly comfortable in her own skin. Over 30 and a mother, she now seems a finished product. This helps explain why Lindsay was asked to join Tracy Austin as a pitchwoman for Juvederm.

I confess up front that I know very little about Juvederm, which was created by the same folks who make Botox (Allergan). This is something I know very little about, although the idea of defending the anti-aging industry and the cosmetic enhancement gestalt appeals to me. Sure it's a big target for a cynic or misanthrope, but why hold it against people that they want to look more attractive, or cling tot their youthfulness? It sure sounds like this Juvederm works; a doctor just shoots the stuff (it's a gel) into your face and it more or less inflates your skin so the wrinkles disappear. One treatment can last for up to a year, and the effect is immediate. It's not like you're filling your face with spent nuclear fuel or possum-liver extract, either - the stuff is said to be more natural than botox (however natural that is).

Tracy and Lindsay have both used Juvederm, and one of the funny moments of the official press conference occurred when a health reporter asked the players to describe their morning post-shower ritual -  did they use many creams and lotions or otherwise primp and preen? Tracy admitted that, in recent years, she's become almost obsessive about using the full panoply of sun-blocks, skin moisturizers, anti-wrinkle creams etc. Lindsay by contrast, characterized her routine with two words:  "Dry and go." She said that until recently, she kept "little or no" lotion or health products in her bathroom.That was interesting, if un-surprising. Lindsay always has been a down to earth girl. 

All in all, they were a cute team, with Tracy playing the worldly older sister bringing Lindsay up to speed on the secrets of the cosmetics sisterhood. I'm not sure how you all feel about Tracy, but I've been liked and admired her forever. Her family took plenty of flak when she became the archetypal prodigy (she was on the cover of World Tennis magazine at age 3 and, when she won her first U.S. Open, she was still given to wearing that red gingham pinafore). But she was incredibly brave and tough, and she matured into a person of substance - principled, honest, humble and hard-working as a commentator for various networks, including USA and the BBC. In three decades, I've never seen Tracy pull a diva move or talk down to anyone.

Anyway, Lindsay and I did get to chat for a while before the press conference got underway. She told me that winning Memphis last week was a big relief to her. Although her comeback took off like a bottle rocket last fall,  the loss to Maria Sharapova (in the Australian Open) and the surprising defeat in the first Fed Cup week (Lindsay lost to Sabine Lisicki of West Germany, who's singles ranking is no. 140) had her rattled.

"It was weird," she reflected. "For the most part I've felt great but something happened and I still don't know what. That Fed Cup match was one of my worst, ever - top five of career, for sure - so I went to Memphis feeling some anxiety. Thank God things went really well, and I got my game back. But having said that, it was a fast court, indoors, really ideal for me, so we'll just see what the rest of the year brings."

Lindsay said she was approaching the spring outdoors season with "hope." Those off-key weeks in Australian and San Diego are still playing on her mind. For what it's worth, other players on the downhill slope of career have observed that while they're still capable of playing their best tennis, it's hard for them to play it consistently, and the bad days tend to be a little worse than before. Still, that hardly seems like Lindsay's problem. She's put together too many good days, often consecutively, since her return.

Lindsay is apt to get her first major, prolonged dose of top competition at Indian Wells, Miami and Amelia Island. She admitted that she's more excited about Indian Wells than Miami, the air in the desert is crisp and dry, while the wind and humidity in Miami make the conditions "heavier"than Lindsay likes.

In keeping with some thoughts I posted the other day on the state of the women's game and the seeming indifference of some players to the call of greatness, I asked LIndsay what she thought of the level of competition in today's game. She said, "The challenge hasn't been as big as I expected, but - keep in mind that I haven't played that many of the girls in the top 20. The draws just haven't turned out that way."

Linds_2 Of course, that underscores the theme here: Lindsay was expecting and looking forward to playing Venus Williams in Memphis, but Venus lost to a qualifier. "I haven't been able to test myself one-on-one against a top player except Maria (Sharapova)," Lindsay said. "I was happy to see that she went on to destroy everyone else in Melbourne, too.  It does seem like a big drop-off now from the top five or six, and it doesn't seem like they're getting much of a challenge from players ranked from 10 through 20."

Lindsay has felt "like a fish out of water" in the locker room - a place where she habitually spent as little time as possible, going all the way back to her early years on the tour. Now, most of her friends have drifted out of the game. She's somewhat friendly with occasional doubles partner Daniela Hantuchova and Svetlana Kuznetsova, and she'll chat with Venus and Serena Williams, but even with them it's mostly "surface stuff."

"That leaves just me and my babysitter," Lindsay said, with a self-deprecating laugh. "So I'm excited and hopeful that Kim (Clijsters) will come back. I'll have someone with whom I can compare notes."

After her three spring events, Lindsay will play in a very tough Fed Cup tie in Moscow, skip the red clay season, and travel to England to play Eastbourne and Wimbledon. Having missed the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens, Lindsay's fired up about Beijing - John has never been to the Olympics, while she's a two-time veteran (she was the 1996 gold medalist in the Atlanta Games). After the U.S. Open, John and Lindsay will reassess.

"It's already getting tougher with Jagger," she told me. "Before, I could just hold and rock him in my arms. Now, he's more mobile. So on the three-hour flight from California to Memphis, it was like Oh, my God! I was fighting him not to kick the back of the seat in front of us, all he wanted was stand up, crawl, it was a different story all of a sudden."

Evonne Goolagong, who won Wimbledon after having her first child, Kelly Inala, sent Lindsay a note at the Australian Open, telling her how nice it was to see her playing again after having had a baby. The two former no.1's never did get together ("I wasn't there long enough," Lindsay said), but perhaps they'll have a chance yet.

"I don't imagine I would play too much into 2009," Lindsay said. "But I've been burned before by what I thought were my plans. Mostly likely though, this will be the last year I play."


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Posted by Andrew 03/04/2008 at 05:31 PM

Tough enough to try to come back late in the career. Coming back with a little one in tow?

Davenport is, in some respects, a prototype for the current WTA. Interested to learn more of her thoughts on the current way the game is played in the WTA vs the ATP.

Posted by jhurwi 03/04/2008 at 05:41 PM

Typo alert: Lindsay couldn't have been the gold medalist in Sydney in 1996: the 1996 Olympics were held in Atlanta, the 2000 Olympics in Sydney.

Posted by Schwab 03/04/2008 at 05:48 PM

I believe that this is Lindsay last year on the tour. One of the reason(s) she came back was to play in the Olympics. I can imagine that the USO will honor her this year before she goes off into the sunset. Her first match at USO will probably be a night match.

Posted by Pete 03/04/2008 at 06:07 PM

Thanks, Jhurwi, fixed!

BTW everyone, I'll have news on get-together at Sampras-Fex exo tomorrow.

Posted by Hart 03/04/2008 at 06:11 PM

"more natural than botox (however natural that is)"

hard to believe, as botox is quite natural. Botox is a form of botulinum toxin, an incredibly potent A/B protein neurotoxin produced quite naturally by the bacterium c. botulinum. It is responsible for botulism, which causes paralysis and death, by paralyzing muscles and nerves. It is also one of the most deadly toxins known to man--a single milligram of toxin can kill an insanely high number of people. (I can't remember exactly how many, but if anyone is particularly curious, I can dig out an old textbook).

I'm not sure when 'natural' became a synonym for 'good for you.' some of the nastiest things in the world are entirely natural! :)

(this has been your factoid-of-the-day)

re lindsay: I, personally, always seem to most enjoy watching players who seem to be having fun playing tennis. Lindsay sure seems to having fun in her comeback; I'm having fun watching her.

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 06:18 PM

Hart: Gee, that makes me want to go out and try botox. ;-)

Posted by Pete 03/04/2008 at 06:19 PM

Wow, Hart. Excellent riff!

Posted by Samantha Elin 03/04/2008 at 06:23 PM

Pete, great post on Lindsay. Lindsay doesn't need Botox, she looks great. Plus I thought Botox is for much older women. Go Justine, world's #1!

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 06:27 PM

"some of the nastiest things in the world are entirely natural! :)"

Like those spiders you were talking about last week? ;-)

The other medalists from the 1996 Olympics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_at_the_1996_Summer_Olympics

Posted by Hart 03/04/2008 at 06:29 PM

Sam:
these facts are, curiously, missing from the Botox promotional materials. ;)
In fact, when Botox first started gaining popularity, some security people were worried about criminals and terrorists breaking into doctors' offices to steal the stuff for use in some nefarious plot! the terrorist doomsday cult Aum Shinrikyo experimented with botulinum toxin in the 90s with (luckily) no success--the stuff is incredibly unstable in the natural environment--they ended up using sarin gas in their subway attack.

Pete: thanks!

;)

Posted by Samantha Elin 03/04/2008 at 06:32 PM

In regards to Tracy, I have never seen her play, but as a commentator, she is far too critical of the players for me. My favorite commentators are Cliffie(for reasons other than tennis) and Mary Joe who is very fair and never has anything bad to say about the players.

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 06:33 PM

Hart: When I first heard about Botox, the toxin part was actually mentioned! So I guess Botox is for those who put vanity above injecting a toxin into their faces ...

Interesting/scary about the criminal/terrorist aspect.

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 06:51 PM

"It's not like you're filling your face with spent nuclear fuel or possum-liver extract, either "

Priceless, Pete.

In terms of a US Open send-off for Lindsay, hasn't she indicated that she wants things to be low-key?

Samantha: I actually like Austin as a commentator, aside from that grating voice.

Posted by beth 03/04/2008 at 07:08 PM

Pete - nice thoughts on LIndsay
While I loved seeing her come back , I can sympathize on the travel with squirming infant

Now , except that Tracy and Lindsay were there - why were you at a Botox and Juvederm symposium ?

Funny , how they picked to girls from Southern California to be the spokespersons for these products

even though Botox is a toxin , I would say it is much safer than being anesthetized so that someone can slice and tighten the extra skin off your face
The risks of anesthesia alone should warn you about that one

Posted by JillfromNY 03/04/2008 at 07:14 PM

I think Austin is one of the best tennis analysts. When she calls a women's match, she actually discusses their shot selection and talks tactics. Too oftent the commentators during women's matches ignore the play and focus on gossip, innuendo, and listening to the so-called commentary is painful. But, Austin tries too hard to play the role of nice girl while allowing others around her to instigate. Ted Robinson would routinely make nasty comments about Venus and Serena and she would never tell him he was wrong or even to pipe down. And when the subject of Landsdorp comes up, she speaks about him with a scary reverence.

Posted by beth 03/04/2008 at 07:14 PM

And , just so you know, any of you who have had a vaccine ( as required to enter school here in the US ) has been injected with or ingested toxins
what do you think they make vaccines out of?
That is right - attenuated ( or weakened ) actual viral agents or toxins so that the body will produce specific antibodies for that particular virus
It is really not so different
except for the purpose of the product
One is to prevent disease , the other for cosmetic purposes
but , the toxins are the same idea
True , botulism is particularly virulent , but so is polio , smallpox , diphtheria , cholera , etc

Posted by Hart 03/04/2008 at 08:00 PM

hmmm, beth, while I totally get what you are saying, and agree on generalities, I would contest some particulars. I'm unaware of any vaccine that utilizes toxins (following the strict definition of toxins, anyway) as a mechanism to induce an antigen response. Which ones were you thinking of?

Vaccines do often contain adjuvents, especially in the case of attenuated, 'killed' or subunit vaccines, but as far as I know, the aluminum hydroxide/phosphate adjuvant is the main (only?) one currently licensed by FDA. I confess I don't know the particulars of Freund's complete adjuvant, which employs mycobacterium--do mycobacterium emit a toxin? I'll have to look it up.

Some rare viruses do produce toxic proteins (the nsP4 rotavirus protein comes to mind) but I would be surprised if the toxic protein were included in any vaccine.

But, very true, many medical practices involve giving patients something that is dangerous in other dosages or forms--such as many vaccines. Drugs are often just poisons in the correct dosages.

But Botox stands out for me as I'm unaware of any medical practices (with the exception of alternative cancer treatments) that employ such toxins such as botulinum toxin for therapy.

Posted by 03/04/2008 at 08:02 PM

huh?

Posted by Yummy Prince Fed - Still No. 1 03/04/2008 at 08:02 PM

Beth, when I told my son recently that the flu shot that he got was the actual flu virus, he was stunned. I said to him why do you think you have an immunization card, which I update all the time to ensure that you are fully immunized. I said to him all the shots that are on there means that you actually got the disease and you have developed antibodies to the disease, that is how childhood illnesses are prevented. As in the USA, the same thing obtains in Jamaica as well. Children cannot even enter kindergarten, pre-school, nursery school or even day care centres without parents first producing their immunization cards. For day care centres, the child should at least have their 6 week or 3 months shot (mothers are usually off work for 3 months on maternity leave) so children get a shot at birth, 6 weeks and then at 3 months.

do not know if I can post o/t here but just notice that everyone was basically posting Fed's comments after his match with Andy Murray and I believe someone posted the link from the BBC website. Of course the BBC are going to post the least flattering comments that they could from Fed without first posting the questions, obviously the hope of a nation is pinned on the hopes of Andy Murray.

Posted by ndk 03/04/2008 at 08:08 PM

I am shocked to see Lindsay advertise cosmetics!

Posted by ptenisnet 03/04/2008 at 08:16 PM

I, for one, believe that parentheses add character.

Posted by 03/04/2008 at 08:21 PM

The wonderful thing about aging is that your sight seems to go as well. I don't even see my parantheses....but I'm sure they're beautiful.

Posted by 03/04/2008 at 08:22 PM

JillfromNy

I Understand what you say about "Tennis Analysists" when it comes to Tracy discussing a players "shots selections" and so forth.
She does do that to a degree, as do alot of commentators.

However, with that said..I think she is one of the WORST commentators out there. I've heard her critisize players MANY times over. In such a backhanded way. Her voice "sounds" nice, so alot of people think she is.

I don't think she tries her hand at "gossip" talk too much because she is usually way off. At last years' USO in particular, I heard her critisize Serena and Nicole Vadisova about things that happened years ago, but speak to it as if it were current.
John Mcenroe, Bill Macatee or Jim Courier would often have to correct her. Which makes me think she doesn't keep up with tennis all year long.

I'm just saying, if she is going to critisize, she needs to keep up with current events.

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 08:22 PM

Beth, YPF: I thought that there has been debate over the past few years that some of the childhood vaccinations are contributing to autism?


Posted by mw 03/04/2008 at 08:24 PM

Sorry, that last post was by me..8:22pm

Posted by beth 03/04/2008 at 08:29 PM

Hart- you know more about the actual chemical makeup of these things
but the point I was making is that a weakened botulism toxin is not that much different than other "bad things" doctors use for medical purposes
It is merely the cosmetic purpose that is questionable in this instance
do the benefits outweigh the risks?
apparently for some people they do
that 's all

it's just the general idea - I know of no vaccine that is an actual toxin
but I have used Pavulon for medical purposes on patients - and I would describe that as pretty toxic as a curare derivative
as are most chemotherapeutic agents
and they have a medical purpose
still not cosmetic - I know - but toxic nonetheless
and injected
guess it is a stretch , but I don't know that Botox has done that much harm , has it?
and if it makes the person feel better about themselves
well , I don't have a problem with it

Posted by beth 03/04/2008 at 08:35 PM

Sam - there have been some studies to that effect
still - you cannot go to school without the vaccines - right now
and until someone can unequivocally prove that the danger to a relative few outweighs the common good
then I don't see that changing.
The eradication of those diseases - particularly diphtheria , pertussis , and the measles - are totally dependent on the vaccines
Polio too
So few people have ever seen what these diseases can do to a population - particularly the very young -
I do not think it is worth the risk to the population at large not to give the vaccines
When those become like smallpox - and only exist in a test tube at the CDC - then talk about not giving the vaccines - as long as there are occasional outbreaks - you have got to give the shots

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 08:40 PM

http://www.commodityonline.com/news/topstory/newsdetails.php?id=5397
"In some cases, the toxin can spread beyond the injection site, paralyzing or weakening the muscles used for breathing and swallowing, a potentially fatal side effect"

Posted by Hart 03/04/2008 at 08:42 PM

beth,
"but the point I was making is that a weakened botulism toxin is not that much different than other "bad things" doctors use for medical purposes"
you are, of course, entirely correct. :)

"I know of no vaccine that is an actual toxin but I have used Pavulon for medical purposes on patients - and I would describe that as pretty toxic as a curare derivative"
I was more nitpicking the toxic/toxin distinction, which after I posted seemed a little silly to do, and I don't know why I bothered bringing it up, as it made no real difference to your main point--which I agree with. blah, forget I posted it. ;)

"I don't know that Botox has done that much harm , has it?"
If it has done harm, outside of isolated incidents inherent in any medical procedure, I haven't heard about it. My original point was just to comment on the general concept going around of 'it's all natural--therefore it's good for you!'

Ugh, I just shouldn't have gotten into it. ;)

Posted by beth 03/04/2008 at 08:48 PM

no problem , Hart
It is an interesting discussion
apparently there have been an isolated few bad side effects
See Sam's link
but all medical procedures have those - no one treatment is fool proof for anything
In the long run - my husband's advice is probably pretty good
avoid medical and surgical treatments unless you are sick

Posted by beth 03/04/2008 at 08:50 PM

all right
I have a birthday dinner to prepare
have a good night folks !

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 08:51 PM

Beth: That's very sound advice from your husband.

Posted by Hart 03/04/2008 at 08:56 PM

Sam--
beth makes a good point about immunity probably being required even if vaccines are ultimately found to cause autism. The prevention of these diseases depends on 'herd immunity' or a certain percentage of the population being vaccinated (exact percentage depends on disease).
The autism debate is an interesting one. Those who believe vaccines are linked to autism cite some research, but none of it is overly convincing--but neither is the research to the contrary. and, remember, it will always be easier to prove that vaccines cause autism than it will be to prove vaccines don't cause autism. In the first, you only need to prove a single correlation--in the second, you need to disprove millions.
;) fascinating topic, tho

Posted by jb 03/04/2008 at 09:12 PM

Somewhere along the line Lindsay has definately grown into her skin. I've caught her several times on TTC something or other, and she looks fabulous. Very relaxed and centered; and watching her 'come back' has been great fun. Fed cup - eesh - definately NOT so fun - but at least she bounced back with a vengence. She just cut a swathe through the memphis draw, I didn't mention it as well, I really wasn't on the board much, but man, every time I looked she was just kickin' some b-tt.

Interesting that they chose lindsay, wonder if they're deliberately trying to appeal to the low maintenance girl next door consumer? Neither Tracey nor Lindsay present like the usual suspects for 'cosmetic work'.

Posted by CL 03/04/2008 at 09:14 PM

You hang in there Hart - lol.

I think Lindsay looks like she is having more fun now playing tennis than she did in her pre-baby tour days. As a 'tall girl' myself, I both empathized with and enjoyed her game, but boy, her attitude was really lousy sometimes.

Parentheses???... I see no parentheses... I see commas.

Posted by ptenisnet 03/04/2008 at 09:17 PM

you see no parantheses because they have been using juvederm.

http://www.juvedermusa.com/

Posted by RedClaw 03/04/2008 at 09:38 PM

Hello Hart,

You write like either a biologist or a chemist (or maybe a med student). As a chemist myself (not the drug selling kind, the mixing molecules one), it's fun to read that sort of thing..

About the autism-vaccine link.. A lot of studies have been done on that subject, but the idea of a link has never been accepted by the mainstream medical community. (Nor supported as more than maybe-possible in any major peer reviewed study.)

http://www.nichd.nih.gov/publications/pubs/autism/mmr/sub3.cfm

There's a lot of people - the "fluorination in the water is killiing us", "microwaves destroy natural foods", and "living near power lines causes cancer" crowds - who go on and on about it... But for all the interesting things to be said about it (yes, the effects of autism are similar to mercury poisoning - sure, mercury poisoning has other indicators that aren't generally found with autism, but, well.. Details), it comes apart when anyone tries to really study it.

For the media, it's a lot more interesting to talk about the study that supports a scary idea like that - than the next 5 years of follow up studies that show it to be baseless..

Ah well.

I don't think I've ever heard Tracy Austin?
But I'm glad Lindsay seems so happy.

Posted by RedClaw 03/04/2008 at 09:43 PM

Actually, this bit from the same page covers more:

http://www.nichd.nih.gov/publications/pubs/autism/mmr/

And they are really looking it to it - Because it's a scary idea, but... The evidence supporting the idea is real flimsy. It's a lot easier to talk about how it might be than to explain how it's not.

For example, tryptophan, the chemical in turkey that makes you sleepy... Isn't absorbed in to the brain when you eat turkey. You're sleepy on Thanksgiving because you're stuffed full of carbs and you probably had a drink or two. :)
The details are kind of complicated, but Wikipedia has them all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophan

YAY SCIENCE. :)

Posted by Hart 03/04/2008 at 09:46 PM

Hi RedClaw,
oooo, what kinda of chemistry? i'm a biologist--chemistry kicked my butt. :)
The problem seems to be that so long as a sensational story gets even slight acknowledgment, it gains serious legs. And it's always harder to disprove something than prove it, so its hard to keep the story under control. :)

Posted by CL 03/04/2008 at 09:50 PM

Pt - that's probably true... all those little lines are vanishing. Just wait til I put on my glasses though!!

Posted by FreudianSlip 03/04/2008 at 09:57 PM

Hello Hart, I can see why CL says you are VERY Smart (as opposed to CL being merely smart, so I inferred)! ;)

I have a colleague whose daughter recently went through a servical cancer scare. She thinks, for reasons unfathomable to non-biologist Siggy (did I mention that I was totally annihilated by the kreps cycle...? then again, refraction had the same effect on little pea-brained siggy), that this scare was caused by a vaccine.... This colleague, incidentally, majored in biology at Cornell.

On the tennis front, good for Lindsay, carpe diem... while you still can... without having to resort to botox! ;)

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 09:58 PM

Hart: Stepped away for a while to let my brain recover, LOL. I do agree with Beth's point about immunity continuing to be required.

RedClaw: I think I found out that information about tryptophan last Thanksgiving. Which brings me to my beer theory - part of why people gain weight when they drink is because beer stimulates their appetites and they end up eating a lot of junk along with their drinks!

Anyway, very interesting discussion.

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 09:59 PM

"I don't think I've ever heard Tracy Austin?"

You'd remember if you heard her. That voice is hard to forget. :-)

Posted by Hart 03/04/2008 at 10:04 PM

Siggy, nice to 'see' you! why do you have two names?
that's too bad about your colleague's daughter, I hope she recovered.

Posted by FreudianSlip 03/04/2008 at 10:14 PM

Hart, so can a vaccine cause cancer...? Had no idea!

Why I have 2 pseudonyms.... well, I initially posted as FruedianSlip, and then grew into Siggy over time, Dr. Freud's first name being Sigmund, ya know. ;) You can also call me Quack Siggy, if you like, I like to pretend to be knowing about a bunch of things I don't know much about, but it's all in good fun...! ;) One can never suffer from too much levity, that's a quack siggyism! ;) (Btw, am trying to recover from Rog's shocking exit, so do pardon me for excess hyperbole... I know, redundant!)

Posted by Hart 03/04/2008 at 10:18 PM

Siggy, actually I don't know...I can't remember hearing about vaccines causing cancer... hmmm. I don't know what she would be referencing.
Certain viruses can cause cancer--cervical cancer can be a result of HPV--maybe she thinks the HPV vaccine caused cancer? I don't know.
If it's a theory, it's not one I've heard of.

ahh, I get 'Siggy" now. makes sense. :)

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 10:20 PM

Article on Lindsay & Tracy's Skin Care Campaign
http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news/Skin_Care_600/Tennis_Champions.shtml

Posted by FreudianSlip 03/04/2008 at 10:25 PM

Hart, does your nom de plume mean anything, or is it your real name? (Ooopsie, beg pardon if that was too intrusive!)

So was it the Jesuit school you attended or... the other one? Persistent I am, non? ;)

By the way, like I said to Otto on the other thread (you and Bismarck ought to hit it off famously, quack siggy has looked into the mirror!), I saw the "Old Men" movie over the weekend, my goodness, the only comment I have about that it "nihilistic." And Javier's hair, it really worked... was soooo creeeeepy.

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 10:25 PM

"ahh, I get 'Siggy" now. makes sense. :)"

Hart really is smart. ;-)

And Siggy - you are not pea-brained!

Posted by CL 03/04/2008 at 10:25 PM

Sam - wasn't Tracy Austin guilty of endlessly repeating, of just about anyone and everyone, "She/he has really good hands." It was like listening to an endless loop of an Allstate commercial.

Hart - Siggy is da bomb... she's 'wicked' (as we used to say in the neighborhood), smart. Knows lots about music and such like. Also, is a major Federer fretter.... hmm...say THAT 3 times fast. No, on second thought, don't.

Siggy - fair warning, Hart is all mine. I dumped Grant for him, (him? I don't even know for sure Hart is a him...but whatever.) (OTH, just in case things don't work out, don't tell Grant, ok?)

Posted by Hart 03/04/2008 at 10:27 PM

OK, Siggy, I just looked it up, cause your comment made me curious. My first thought was that perhaps the HPV vaccine was composed of an attenuated form of HPV. Theoretically, the attenuated form could mutate into the actual virus and from there result in cancer (this has happened a handful of times with the polio vaccine, but is extraordinarily, amazingly rare). However the HPV vaccine is, i just learned, not an attenuated vaccine, but one made out of virus-like particles, so there is no way it can mutate to the virus.

So, i have NO idea how a vaccine would cause cancer. ? I would be interested to learn why she thinks this.

Posted by Hart 03/04/2008 at 10:33 PM

Siggy--
Hart is a shortened version of my last name, and was the name my thesis advisor usually called me. :)
I went to Georgetown for grad school. :) But I was only there briefly--a masters, not a PhD.
I liked "old men" better than TWBB. Javier had the world's scariest bowl-cut.
And you seem quite smart. :) I just memorize things. And I know nothing about music--you shall have to enlighten me.

CL--I am not a 'him.' So you might want to rethink Grant. :)

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 10:37 PM

"I am not a 'him.' So you might want to rethink Grant. :) "

Too late, I think Tari has already snatched up Grant. ;-)

CL: Not sure about Austin and the "good hands" comments.

Posted by Hart 03/04/2008 at 10:39 PM

"It was like listening to an endless loop of an Allstate commercial."

**snortgiggle**

Posted by CL 03/04/2008 at 10:44 PM

Hart - well as I said, "whatever" ;-)) Besides, who knows if Grant is a him...he certainly sound 'him-ish' but here on the internets, you just can't ever be sure. :-))

Color me a superficial Cloonette, but my fav Oscar nominated movie was Michael Clayton. Best performance though was Tommy Lee Jones in The Valley of Elah.


Sam - actually, I think it was "great hands" about anyone who ventured closer than 10 feet from the net.

Posted by FreudianSlip 03/04/2008 at 10:48 PM

Holy cowboy, Sam and CL, whatcha doing to me... I am da bomb...! and wicked, OK, I can so work with that one! ;)

CL, karmic comeuppance that was, you lost out on Grant while you were eyeing Hart, all female she is! I have to laugh...! ;o

Hart, about the vaccine thing, I'll have to ask my esteemed colleague, though the truth is... everytime she starts talking shop, I get, ummm, glazed, what Sam so kindly said notwithstanding..... and you went to the Jesuit school, I knew it! ;)

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 10:48 PM

"actually, I think it was "great hands" about anyone who ventured closer than 10 feet from the net."

These days, that would be a small list ...

Posted by CL 03/04/2008 at 10:59 PM

Siggy - well in my old neighborhood, 'wicked' just means 'very,' so 'wicked smart' means very smart. Capice? And yes, the grass is not ALWAYS greener because of the other side of the gender fence...or something like that. :-)

Sam ...lol... but I don't think Tracy ever let reality get in her way.

Buttercup is down a break to Sparkles?! How is this possible? Whew..BPs

Posted by Sam 03/04/2008 at 11:06 PM

" I don't think Tracy ever let reality get in her way."

LOL CL. I need a translation - who are Buttercup & Sparkles?

Posted by temes 03/05/2008 at 04:22 AM

The umm...side effects of botox amongst other cosmetic surgery. Or, well, I guess in this case desired effects. Nontheless http://www.oddee.com/_media/imgs/articles/a99_Jocelyn.jpg

Lindsay looks great I hope she'll meet many top players this year and does very well.

Posted by Samantha Elin 03/05/2008 at 06:17 AM

Her grating voice has broken alot of mute buttons, and I agree with MW, she has been very critical of the Williamses, and she has said some mean things about the Queen in regards to the AO incident. Guys seem to age must better than girls and don't need Botox. Guys can be very hot when they are older, lots of examples, Cliffie, George Clooney, Robert Redford, Former President Clinton, but very few women can be hot at that age. I have to be honest, I don't think wrinkles are very attractive on girls but I like them on guys. Go Justine, world's #1!

Posted by Samantha Elin 03/05/2008 at 06:19 AM

Temes, I don't know who the lady is in the picture, but she would be beautiful if she was a lion which is what she looks like to me. Meow!

Posted by yello fuzz 03/05/2008 at 08:09 AM

Samantha Elin
If you ever saw the movie "Grumpier Old Men" , the idea that the beauty of women diminishes with age should have been laid to rest. Ann Margret and Sophia Loren looked 100 times better than the skeletor-esque actresses on screen today. These 2 ladies looked as good and even better as mature goddesses, as when they were ravishing young goddesses(maturity is the key)
where does the concept of men aging better than women come from? the way the we as a world culture view women is definitely not legitimate . there is some underlying motive here that has nothing to do with anything other than some kinda perverted male need to re-enforce the tenuous grip on control of everything, that we jerks think we have.
Richard Craniums are running the world, god save us

Posted by Samantha Elin 03/05/2008 at 08:36 AM

Yellow Fuzz, I don't mean this in a mean way, but I just don't think a women looks good with alot of crow feet around her eyes and lines around her mouth and a wrinkled brow. Also, many guys prefer younger women, and I think that is why Botox is so popular with older women who are trying to compete wtih younger women for guys. You have alot of guys who look good at say 4O, but fewer women.

Posted by Sam 03/05/2008 at 08:53 AM

yello fuzz: I would add Racquel Welch as someone who I think has aged well.

Samantha: I think your perspective of older women and beauty might change when you're 40 or so. ;-)

Posted by ptenisnet 03/05/2008 at 09:05 AM

Hart's a her? This is a revelation of beckhamic proportions.

Posted by yello fuzz 03/05/2008 at 09:07 AM

Samantha Elin
men don't grow up with the constant scrutiny of how they look. girls are bombarded from day one with social messages about whats pretty and why they aren't. " Your not blond, your hair is frizzy, small boobs, big butt too fat or too skinny yada yada yada
don't you think the fact in one of the riches countries in the world , young women are starving themselves to death , for beauties sake. or even more so with that freaky cat lady
men can't control women, but they can effect the way women see themselves and feel about themselves
where do these concepts of whats beautiful come from? The media is one place, owned, conceived and operated by men: Academia once again a male driven and conceived.Yeah women have been schooling, writing and talking for as long as men have allowed them to and men have been binding feet and denying access ever since the first wall was built
There was an Oprah episode a while back that had a french women on who wrote a book about why french women aren't fat, and the one thing they spoke about how women older than 40 were appreciated in France , they were compared to a fine wine
In the states we wanna throw away everything

Posted by yello fuzz 03/05/2008 at 09:16 AM

Sam
Jessica Lange,Lena Horne at 60+!!!!, Charo(!!!!), Catherine Deneuve !!!!,Susan Sarandon, Pam Grier, ,Michelle Pfiefer!!! and many ,many more

Posted by Sam 03/05/2008 at 09:27 AM

ptenisnet: I think the Hart revelation came a few weeks ago. I was fooled at first too!

yello fuzz: Looks like you don't need my help coming up with a list. ;-)

Posted by Sandra 03/05/2008 at 09:33 AM

I think Samantha is in her 20's and doesn't want to have to compete with women in their 40's - LOL! Wait till Sam reaches her 40's and has to listen to women in their 20's talk about her like a dog the way she is talking about older women. And it's not that men age better than women - men are simply judged less harshly. A woman with a few wrinkles is said to look old, while a man with the same or even more wrinkles and grey hair is said to look "distinguished". Thank God I'm black and don't have to deal with these nasty age judgments yet - I'm in my 50's and not a wrinkle in sight. My mother is almost 80 and has no wrinkles either (she still gets pimples, as do I)!

Posted by yello fuzz 03/05/2008 at 09:53 AM

Hey we all get old, get over it
this may not have anything to do with the age issue, but it's pretty funny anyway
someone once said' if men could have babies, you would be able to get an abortion from a vending machine'

Posted by Pete 03/05/2008 at 10:26 AM

Samantha the truth-teller. You know, life is just endlessly fascinating, and I'm being 100 per cent serious.

Posted by Todd and in Charge 03/05/2008 at 11:14 AM

One worrying trend, and not just with botox, is Big Pharma's aggressive promotion of drugs to doctors for off-label uses.

One particular off-label use for botox is as a treatment for chronic migraines. There is already litigation over this involving Hollywood mucketymuck Mike Medavoy's wife:

http://tinyurl.com/yssvq5

Posted by Sam 03/05/2008 at 11:24 AM

Todd: Interesting link. What do you think of the aggressive promotion of drugs to consumers via TV ads?

Posted by beth 03/05/2008 at 11:49 AM

the debate rages on
That photo of that bizarre cat woman that temes posted - is the result of over 20 actual surgeries - under anesthesia with a knife - while Botox may be a part of her problem - it is not the cause of that freak of nature
just for the record - Samantha is in high school - not her 20's
I agree with a lot of what yellow fuzz has said - about the media perception of older men vs women .
But I would also be willing to bet my house that more than one of those gorgeous mature actresses that you all listed - Sophia Loren, Ann Margret , Raquel Welch , et al- have used plastic surgery, Botox , Juvederm or other fillers , etc to stave off the effects of aging. They are not just genetic freaks of anti aging - their looks are a huge part of their livelihood - and they will do what they have to , to keep it that way.
So please - do not hold them up as paragons of virtue in that regard . I simply am not buying it. Just because it is well done by a terrific pro - does not mean it does not happen. l

Posted by 03/05/2008 at 11:51 AM

“Guys seem to age must better than girls and don't need Botox.”

I disagree. Men don’t age better. They just aren’t scrutinized the way women are. Looks just aren’t as important for a man-money and power are. When a man grows old we use words like “dignified” and “refined”. It is almost a badge of honor. When a woman gets older she is no longer seen as a sexual being. She’s an “old maid”.

“Guys can be very hot when they are older, lots of examples, Cliffie, George Clooney, Robert Redford, Former President Clinton, but very few women can be hot at that age”

I also disagree with this comment. I don’t think George or Robert Redford (wrinkle face)is attractive. I think the society has conditioned us to believe this is the case.

“Also, many guys prefer younger women, and I think that is why Botox is so popular with older women who are trying to compete wtih younger women for guys.”

These men you speak of have money, power or both. The average bald headed 40-something isn’t attractive to a young woman-his money is though.

Posted by 03/05/2008 at 11:55 AM

"Thank God I'm black and don't have to deal with these nasty age judgments yet - I'm in my 50's and not a wrinkle in sight. My mother is almost 80 and has no wrinkles either (she still gets pimples, as do I)! "

I can relate. Lol! I really feel for aging North American women-especially Caucasians. The pressure to look 20 at 40 yrs old is absolutely unrealistic. On top of everything else they are expected to weigh 90lbs at 5'6". I'm sorry, but I like to eat. Thank goodness black men in general like a little(sometimes a lot)of meat on your bones.

Posted by MrsSanta 03/05/2008 at 12:02 PM

Lindsay is only 31 years old and has a reputation as a supposedly laid back low maintenance sort of person. How in the world did she end up as the spokesperson for bootleg botox?

Posted by 03/05/2008 at 12:10 PM

Beth is right. Look in your neighborhood to find a woman aging nicely. Don't count on older actresses to be aging naturally.

Posted by beth 03/05/2008 at 12:14 PM

Mrs S - I think she is the spokesperson for Juvederm , to be exact
but I know - it is sure different from her persona
She has been corrupted by the rest of the OC - Newport clan

Tracy Austin - I can see as the spokes person - she is exactly the age and group they are marketing to
Her voice is grating on the tv - even more so in person
the squeak is unreal
Except for the tone of her voice , I find her commentary to be pretty good - at least - like the other champions who have preceded her in the broadcast booth , I feel like she knows her topic very well
And yes, she does treat Robert Lansdorp with a deep reverence - but then , he built her game - so why wouldn't she
He is a very formidable figure to a youngster - and that is what she was when he coached her

Posted by yello fuzz 03/05/2008 at 12:14 PM

so we are back to hags, cougars and crones...most of the women that can afford the surgeries probably will have them...the point is women are fed a diet of ,not good, enough , not strong enough , not pretty enough throughout there whole lives in america and a lot of other places too....when a woman dares to think otherwise
she dismissed as a b@tch, hag or just plain ugly.and if she's old just put her out with yesterdays news
do u actually think Sophia, or Catherine Denueve have gone under the knife?
say it isn't so!!!
plastic surgery is like a drug, that freaky cat lady is a good example, so is Micheal jackson. these doctors are having a feeding frenzy on the rich that have too much money and too many mirrors in their life.
doctors are the pushers these days, think of ana nicole, or heath ledger, they may have overdosed but how did they get such a variety of drugs, the drugs they both were on were prescribed by a Dr. When does this caregiver say....' I am not gonna give u anymore medication', or ' if I carve anymore of that nose away you are not gonna have a nose left' These so call doctors should be referring these poor souls to a psychiatrist and not counting the money or perks that the greedy pharmaceutical companies are willing to pay

Posted by beth 03/05/2008 at 12:20 PM

Sam - your question about direct marketing of prescription drugs is a good one
I am not sure it is a good idea
Many times consumers do not understand the best uses of the drug - and while their suggestions may be good- it is up to the physician who should know all of the aspects of the drug treatment as well as the particulars of the patients own personal health . Those two things hopefully lead to the right choice of medication - not some marketing ploy .
I cite how often patients demand antibiotics for a cold - completely useless in treatment - and potentially harmful -leading to sensitivities to otherwise good medications. As well as mutations of antibiotic resistant bacteria from over use .
The consumer in this case , does not know best. And shame on the physician who caves in to this demand.

Posted by Pete 03/05/2008 at 12:22 PM

To Todd's point, the Juvederm folks at the press conference also had a doctor on hand, delivering the initial presentation and it was a woman doc who is pretty well known and apparently was cited by New York magazine as one of NY's best dermatologists (or is it plastic surgeons?) or something - not that that really means anything, but. . . Anyway, I did find it somewhat uncomfortable that an actual physician would be aggressively pitching this product, but then if she really believes in it, thinks it helps women feel better about themselves,who am I to say, or impose my view of beauty or gender etc on them?

Posted by robbyfan 03/05/2008 at 12:23 PM

Pete-Money Talks. There are tons of doctors shilling for dubious products all over the media.

Posted by beth 03/05/2008 at 12:24 PM

yellow fuzz - cannot swear about those two ( Deneuve or Loren ) - but Raquel Welch ?
She has made no secret of her plastic surgeries in the past
( see , I hedged my bets )
and I would not put a little Botox past any of them
It is certainly possible

And I agree with you about those unscrupulous doctors - they should be censured in some way
but , the trouble with Dr Feelgood's and celebrities -
They can always find someone else who will give them what they want
Ultimately , the problem is with the addict - not just the enabler

Posted by robbyfan 03/05/2008 at 12:25 PM

Also judging from the pictures, these 2 should be promoting sunscreen.

Posted by beth 03/05/2008 at 12:32 PM

Robbyfan - I am guessing self tanner or mystic tan
at least for Tracy

call me cynical

Posted by Sam 03/05/2008 at 12:33 PM

Beth: Well said in your 12:20 post.

Also, it was me, not yello fuzz, that brought up Raquel Welch. At least they did a good job on her. ;-)

Posted by yello fuzz 03/05/2008 at 12:34 PM

Pete
I wonder what kind of 'cut' this doctor got, for promoting this crap
somebody out there is feeling better with heroin cursing through their veins, there's probably more than a few men out there that feel better abusing their mates, there's some creep out there selling crack to kids, I'm sure that cash he is making ,makes him feel real good too
if you don't like yourself all the botox, alcohol, money , implants etc aren't going to make what u see in the mirror any better. women who are anorexic, loose the weight the want to get rid of, but it is never enough. they seem to want to diet themselves right out of existence.
it never stops. the search for perfection is an open-ended journey with no end in sight

Posted by Sam 03/05/2008 at 12:34 PM

Beth: You're cynical. ;-)

Posted by robbyfan 03/05/2008 at 12:34 PM

Beth- you might be right. I was looking at the spots on LD's chest. Looks like sun damage to me. I come from the days when we laid in the sun and stroked on iodine and baby oil to get a darker tan.

Posted by CL 03/05/2008 at 12:39 PM

Sam - way after the fact, but Buttercup=Baggy, (derived from Snoo calling him B-Cup), and Sparkles is Spadea... derived from...well..I dunno... something about his, er 'rap' oufits?

Posted by Sam 03/05/2008 at 12:42 PM

CL: Okay, I knew of the B-cup moniker, but Buttercup had me stumped. And come to think of it, Spadea did wear some sparkle-covered hat at the US Open a year or two ago ...

Posted by yello fuzz 03/05/2008 at 12:44 PM

anyone who chooses to take a needle to the face is a nut-case
I can barely wear wool pants without complaining about the prickles.like I am gonna pay for someone to put a needle in my face on the chance that it might make me prettier.
NOT!

Posted by yello fuzz 03/05/2008 at 12:46 PM

and don't get me started about the electric beach

Posted by beth 03/05/2008 at 01:04 PM

Robbyfan - I see what you mean - I have used the iodine and baby oil trick myself
but, only once , cause I burn something fierce without sunscreen
I am a member of the SPF 500 club
My mom used to make me wear that white goop on my face - remember that stuff
I hated her at the time - but boy was she right
While I may have some sun damage , it is not as bad as some of my peers who baked themselves in the sun

Sam - cynical , that 's me . I also happen to have met Tracy Austin on a few occasions, and I would say she uses self tanner - as do many women - to get the sunkissed look without the sun damage

Posted by Yummy Prince Fed Rules 03/05/2008 at 01:17 PM

I am a black woman in my 40s with a son who is 22 and a daughter who is 25. I am pleasingly plump in all the right places. I have no wrinkles. I have very beautiful laugh lines and what could be termed crows feet, which I believe gives me a wonderful dignified air. I have no greys, not because I use coverups on my hair but because I am genetically blessed. My dad who is 80+ and my mother who is 70+ have no wrinkles and no grey hair, so I know that when I get to that age (the Lord willing) I too will look absolutely fabulous.

I am the envy of everyone in my office (they are caucasians) about my skin, and the fact that no matter how much make up I wear, which is usually very minimal (a little foundation and lipstick) and all I do is wash my face with regular bathing soap, I scrub once per month using St. Ives (over the counter thank you very much), and I use Night of Olay most nights (perhaps 3 times per week) to ensure that my skin stays moisturized as I am going through menopause.

I will never ever consider plastic surgery. I honestly believe that if a woman gets to her 40s and still does not appreciate her true beauty then she will never appreciate it.

Posted by beth 03/05/2008 at 01:18 PM

yellow fuzz- I'll give you vain and maybe desperate
but nuts seems a little harsh
for everyone who has tried these treatments

Posted by afwu 1216 03/05/2008 at 01:20 PM

S. Peng and T. Sun def. S. Williams and V. Williams- 5-7,6-2,11-9(Match TB)

Posted by Hassan 03/05/2008 at 02:10 PM

KIM CLIJSTERS!!! COME BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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