Rafa getting that record would be special.
I hope he does that.

Funny that Rafa is now set to break a record held by a woman.

Was Svetlana serving for the match against Justine in 2005 when she had her match point? If yes, I believe she just broken Justine to give her a chance to close out the match.

Americans left:
ATP(2-7) - Roddick and Kendrick
WTA(4-4) - V Williams, S Williams, Craybas, and Glatch

Thank you, Mr. Bodo, for writing a piece that did not mention (even in passing) Fed and Rafa!

Best line: "The Corral at Stampede Park, in Calgary. Honest, that's the name of the arena. Yee-haw!"

Stampede Park? Now that's a good name for a tennis venue! How stale does, say, the "Stella Artois Championship" sound in comparison?

Ivo's fans (rumor has it that he does, in fact, have some) will love you for giving the friendly giant his due. His serving was nothing less than stupendous, and his ability to do it on clay, against a formidable returner, ought to grab the attention of the other big servers on tour. Are you listening, Andy Roodick?

--Liron

Steffi Graf has 22 Grand Slam singles titles? Is that correct? that's the most astounding thing i've ever read. whaaattt?

oh Congrats Ivo. that's astounding too. and i can't believe no one bothered to record aces until '91.

The women really do set the standard as far as records go. Rafa and Roger have a long way to go to match Steffi.

Not taking anything away from the women (since I'm one), but it's almost like comparing applies to oranges. The men have to play best of 5 from round 1 through the end in all their matches so when you look at 22 grand slams for Steffi - that is impressive, but the 14 by Pete is also impressive because of the best of 5 set standard from day 1 in a slam. (just my take).

Listening to Serena's press conference, said she just wanted to win a match on clay. She seems to be aware of her weaknesses and knows she has to play better.

Listening to Serena's press conference, said she just wanted to win a match on clay. She seems to be aware of her weaknesses and knows she has to play better.

Oh sorry for the dup. Go Caro, Scandinavia's#1!

L. Rubin -

I don't understand. What is Roddick supposed to be listening for? That he should serve more aces?

I'm watching the hot messes match. Martina N on JJ, "she doesn't have a weakness." Does she close her eyes when hot mess is serving?

Black Matt, actually that wouldn't hurt. It's been a while since I saw A-Rod dictating with his serve.

I hope when Serena is match point down and has her opponent right where she wants them that she (serena) makes a mental error and actually loses the match.

The two things i would really relish seeing this french open 2009:

1. Fed winning
2. Serena losing (hopefully early so she can eat crow about how she is the true num 1)

Wouldnt that have been funny if serena lost in the first round after that comment? I would have enjoyed a nice beer to celebrate that is for sure and im saving my favorite beverage for when she exists the tournament without the trophy.

Go Serena!

yup Annie and she has at least four of every slam.

Fot, I don't think its the best of 3 that would be the knock. Cos she would be playing against equally fresh opponents. The woman's heavy used to be very top heavy till this decade.

I am still under shock about Kuerten's name in the ace category. Its rigger I tell you rigged - just kidding :)

seriously - they did not keep ace records until 91 ?
that seems really late to start keeping track of that
That means that Becker's Wimbledon runs would not be in the mix
seems to me that his serve was really a potent weapon during his run to the championship the first couple of times

It is kind of a shame that his ace counts would not be included in any records of that stat

deeps, unlike most clay-courters Guga had a 1st-rate serve. He always got his share of free points. Without it he prolly wouldn't have snatched up those HC titles.

Fot -

Please don't cut and paste entire reports, especially not without linking the source or giving the author's name. Better just to provide a link. I will need to delete.

The appropriate place to post on fashion is in the Crisis Center.

NP was right about kuerten having a top notch serve. His serve was slightly awkward making it hard to read i think. It was fast too.

I loved his backhand. You never knew when he was going to smash it down the line for a winner.

I tried for a long time to hit a backhand hard like guga. I even call my backhand when i hit it like that "my guga backhand"

Pete's semifinal picks were Nadal, Montanes(?), Djokovic and Montfils/Mathieu(???).

My semifinal picks last week were Rafa, Gonzo, Djoker, and Fed.

So I'm already doing better than Pete with my predictions. At least all of my semifinalist picks made it out of the first round! Ha ha, Pete! Picking against Roger apparently addled your brain.

The 22 GS titles for Steffi are obviously impressive, but even moreso perhaps is the fact that she won each of the four championships at least 4 times. Sort of puts the "amazing" accomplishments of the current players into a bit of perspective.

I'm sorry, but I'm listening to an interview with JJ and her ego makes her sound like she has a hard time dealing with reality. "I was the best player at the end of the year." She most certainly wasn't. Was she the best when she was losing to Serena in straights at the USO and then losing to Venus at the YEC? Both were at the end of the season. Reality check for hot mess. BTW, I love the Djoko commercials, very cute when he's flirting with the fan. Go Caro, Scandinavia's#1, world's#1O!

I'm just in awe over Steffi's 22 gs titles. that's a lot of hardware in the house. glittering, gorgeous plates, loving cups, punch bowls..you name it. where does she put them all? and then add andre's on top of hers? Just read somewhere that the Agassi's will be presenting the trophies this year at RG. hope that is true.

Octennis *whispers* i kinda wanted to see serena upset today too. I liked the girl she was playing.

Hello again, all! Back for a teensy while.

LOL Tigress.
GO TIPSY!!!!! You got Pete's predictions messed up! Now I just hope you make it out beyond the second round.. (unless it's against Roger or Elf Potro or Cilic Pepper)! LOL.

I absolutely loathe Bud Collins....that 59-ace game that he mentions probably never ever happened, and it just pisses me off that he even mentions stuff like that and expects people to actually believe him. It's uncomfortable and embarassing when he brings up that kind of stuff on the air...it's like "okay old man, we all know you love telling your made-up stories...give it a rest"

Pete - this was just chockablock full of interesting tidbits.

I never realized Guga was up there with the most ace / match stat. I DID know about all the aces and losing, think that came up when pim pim served a bzillion aces against agassi in Oz, and lost... :) its a pretty dang good accomplishment that against that barage, lleyton was able to dig in and make it through the match.

i also caught that bit from kendrick when he was being interviewed, he sort of sihfted gears in explaining why he didn't call for a trainer. I wanted to hug him actually, or at least buy him a beer. It was a tough match he gutted out and it was obvious he didn't want to be the [self-edited] who called for trainer on another guys serve.

as for kuzzie - oh dear, sadly spot on. seems like such a nice unassuming chica, and a grea athlete, but dang she's been in some painful matches. but you never know, she's finally playing better again...

I'm rooting for dinara to keep her focus and get to the final at least. (hail, i wouldn't mind that girrrl taking it this time either!)

PS i heart Guga. And I miss him. :(

Wait a minute... "Chris Evert's .8996 career winning percentage"

!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! OMG THAT's impressive.

Ok I'm outta here. Nearly 1 am. Better snooze b4 RG day 4!!!!
Bye all.

jon: Bud doesn't pay me squat, and I'm not the biggest fan of his style of reportage, but he deserves respect. When tennis didn't exist on the national sports journalism radar screen it was Bud who brought the game into our living rooms from WGBH, and you can bet your last per diem it wasn't for the love of lucre. The fact that Fingers Fortesque is a fiction doesn't mean that Ed Kauder is. The most cursory reading of Collins' work would tell you what's history and what's humor, even if it doesn't happen to make you laugh personally. Appreciating Bud via a bit of historical perspective would go a long way towards educating many a modern fan of the game.

Speaking of history, ace kings....Chip Hooper? Short-lived, but burned brightly?

And lastly, still speaking of history, I pass along a story I was told. I was neither there to see it nor have ever read about it anywhere else, so I cannot vouch for it. That will not stop me from passing it along....

It seems Laver was playing Gonzales, sometime in the late 60's or maybe early 70's, and was cruising pretty handily when he made a critical error: he gave Pancho a game, and it was obvious. Gonzales was livid, and stormed back to win. Laver's heart was in the right place, but expressed itself poorly.

Which is not to say Keothavong is a modern day Gonzales, but Safina has it right: the utmost respect is shown by playing your best.

Fot,
Agree 200%.
I am all about equal prize money etc., but comparing records, I think not.
I think we can compare the records when women play best of 5 as well.
Or better, let's compare the number of sets.

Well, as much I like Graff, I think those 22 slams are not a reliable number. By my account, at least 6 slams were earned during the three-year period of Seles' absence, after those shameful stabbing episode. Seles was never the same. Somehow, Seles, from the 1990 French Open victory, begun to dominate Graf, specially in the Slams (3-1). My guess is that Graf would never surpass Martina Navratilova's 18 slams. I know, I'm speculating.

I can't remember of any of the great champions (man or women) who were dismissed of facing their legimate rival in the history of the game. Imagine Federer without Nadal, Navratilova without Evert, Borg without Mcenroe, what would they achieve. Navratilova specially, had to face two multi-slam rivals in their prime to build her record, Evert and a young Graf. Graf had to stood up with 2 years of and old Martina, and 2 and a half years of Seles. That's it.

Graf's career had the most tremendously-lucky timing of all time. Seles was meant to be one of the saddest stories of tennis.

For you Graf fans in the house... yes she was a great player, I saw many of her Grand Slam wins live but I'm guessing you didn't otherwise you might be familiar with some of the other details of her career. That lofty 22 slam record would never have been achieved if Monica Seles had not been literally stabbed in the back. Make no mistake, Monica was dominating Steffi before that tragic event occured.

Pete, great post. Enjoyed reading this very much. I hope you post more using this format. Thanks ; )

I enjoyed these meanderings, too, Pete! Funny about Monfils, but I'm not surprised that there's such big non-news about the French players given the state fo things right now (Mauresmo out early, Gasquet...). I have my fingers crossed for Tsonga, personally.

NP, I knew his serve was good - just didn't realize how good.

j6-strings - I guess so - I need to watch some Guga HC matches.

About the Graf vs Seles debate, at the risk of repeating myself, it was a 3-1 record in the slams from the 1990 FO to the stabbing but the overall H2H was just 4-3 - not a washout. Its not like Evert-Navrotilova where they would go on 7-0 streaks etc.. Lets say Graf would have won only half the slams post 1992 if Seles hadn't been stabbed - it would still put Graf at 17. Also, Graf lost to a lot of players in that period (for a variety of reasons)- not just Seles and she went on to dominate all those players. There is a what if on Graf's record cos of the stabbing but in the end its just a what if - maybe Seles would have dominated, maybe Graf would have figured Seles out in a year or so and dominated or maybe we were robbed out of one of the game's greatest rivalry. The truth is we don't know but its not a slam dunk thst Seles would have had a Graf like dominance if she had not been stabbed.

Goes to search for Guga's hard court matches.

The "Graf wouldn't have won 22 Slams" argument is a bit like the Federer 'weak era" argument. Both are unwinnable; in both cases there's also a point to be made about what other champions were around during the entire era when they were stacking up their Slams.

Obviously there's nothing much that would have stopped Steffi from getting to all of those Slam finals, whoever had been on the other side of the net.

I liked Seles enormously (except for the grunting), so, while acknowledging Steffi's greatness, I'd also want to acknowledge the huge potential that was cut short when she was stabbed - by a mad, violent fan of her great rival, in case anyone should forget that. Fan loyalties are fun, as long as they stay fun - certainly not worth the kind of feelings that actually express violence, man-on-woman as it was. The perpetrator was treated with totally unwarranted leniency, which really did add insult to injury.

We really can't know exactly what would have happened if the rivalry had been played out as all reasonable tennis fans would have wanted. Graf went through some very tough times personally, in the public eye which she was very unhappy about, and her tennis suffered. Then she came back again and played better tennis. She most certainly wasn't responsible for what amounts to the attempted murder of Seles - just horrific to think about. In the end she just was who she was in her era, whoever else was around and whatever else was going on.

Steffi would have been a great player in any era, but much as I admire her very comprehensive achievements, I have to acknowledge the realities of the era she played in. That said, I believe that she would have stacked up exceptional career numbers regardless of what happened to Monica Seles; even in a genuinely weak era, however that's defined, you don't dominate to the extent that Steffi did without having a claim to greatness.

Rosangel,
Good point about Steffi. During her playing days, her dad stayed in the news for the wrong reasons (ie - tax evasion) and she had her share of injuries that kept her out of action.

Master Ace: not to mention scandal related to his personal life, and the child by his mistress that eventually turned out not to be his. Steffi was pretty loyal to her father during everything that happened, but no young person would want to go through all that in the public eye.

I saw Gaudio in Cincinnati the summer after he won the French. He and Agassi were practicing on center (hard)court early one morning. Gaston was absolutely running Andre ragged. Cahill was hopping around trying to calm Andre down and Gaston was just hitting one monster shot after another. I thought to myself, this guy is going to be phenomenal, but then he just went away. It would make a great book!

Rosangel, I agree completely with your anti-"weak era" argument. You would think that Federer played in the weakest era in the history of tennis, with the way that some people try to diminish his 2004-2007 dominance.

I remember the Steffi-Monica "rivalry" pretty well, and I don't really remember Monica winning a whole lot of matches against Steffi, which probably had something to do with the 10-5 record Steffi had against Monica.

Steffi still looked pretty good in that Wimbledon exo against Kim Clisters a couple of weeks ago. I'd say that if she were in top shape, she wouldn't be a pushover today even at her age.

Gotcha, deeps. Guga's still one of my faves.

I can't help but love that Gaudio guy even though I haven't seen him play too many matches. No one self-deprecates the way that he does. I really liked that quote about the hotel staff, he's got a couple good ones. I think he said after losing a final where the winner got a porsche something to the effect of, "If I don't win the car next year I'm stealing it."

I also vaguely recall Pim-Pim Johannson breaking the serving record (he was tied with Dr. Ivo at the time) and losing the match to Agassi. I guess guys should stop hitting so many aces if they want to win.

What folks don't understand is the underlying contradiction in the argument about any Dominating player vis-a-vis a weak era. The reason someone appears (and is) dominating is because they make it appear like there's no competition - thus, a 'weak era'. If they don't dominate, - and some great players didn't (Edberg, Becker, and to a large extent even Sampras) - that is 'cuz they simply couldn't mow down the opposition. Agree with Rosengal, Steffi dominated like no other. So did Fed of course. The opposition just fizzle away to make it look like those 4-5 years seem a weak era but for *that* player. Simple as that.

Rosangel,
great post regarding Graf and Seles. It was a rather unfortunate incident and should not have happened. But Graf won those titles using her racquet.

Also great point about the weak/strong era. Graf played her matches and won them. who knows what would have happened if Seles was not stabbed.

A point in case for my above thread.
ASVicario or Sabatini or say, Roddick or Davydenko or Blake and now Novak would have won a slam or two or three each if not for Fed. Such is the class of these guys.

Pete, you made me laugh today with this post. I really enjoyed it.

Heck, the way things went today in her first round match, Serena better hope that every player across the net from her is "Kuzzy-like" from here on out in each round! I'm not giving up on my girl Superwoman S, but I have NEVER seen Serena so emotionally down after a match as she was today! I think she realizes that loose lips sink ships (as they say), and maybe she talked too much recently! Of course, the pundits asked her the dumbest questions on earth (my hubby, who had never seen a tennis presser, was appalled!).

Thanks Pete for stressing that "other" side to the game of past eras (particularly the womens game). I think it's ridiculous how in this era of tennis the fans and pundits -- even the players -- take it upon themselves at nearly every opportunity to rant that "but it's tougher now!" "We have more depth."

Ha! Ha! Ha! AND, DOUBLE HaHA! The women's game is a complete hot mess. You have more forced errors than winners!! More spoiled brats! More shriekers who scream cause Nick B. told'em it was good to do so! PLEASE! SHUT TFU ladies (and gents)!

I'd rather watch Chris Evert v Evonne Goolagong in 1976 at the Slims championship at Los Angeles than nearly anything offered on the tour today (few errors, and some great moves and shots from two great champions). So don't sell me that depth crap! It's a joke by PR people trying to sell the current crop (or should I have written "crap!"). As I once wrote here, parity of mediocrity is what exist today! Depth in terms of plenty more average (and soon forgettable) players to offer from all over the world. Nothing but Shriekers from the Bollettieri method of tennis.

For the first time in my tennis fan life (dating to US Open at Forest Hills 1971), mens tennis is my preference. Why? Because there are guys playing who are competing for legend status. With a couple of great young guys bubbling underneath to make them think about whether their status at the top could change. Nadal, Fed, Murry, and Djoker! With Andy Roddick offering a little spice in the mix beneath the top. Actually, per my memory, the game at its best always offered the creme then the rest -- whether men or women. Only now is the women's game middle tier (and I'm being kind writing that). Depth doesn't necessarily mean "better."

Annie wrote:

"I'm just in awe over Steffi's 22 gs titles. that's a lot of hardware in the house. glittering, gorgeous plates, loving cups, punch bowls..you name it. where does she put them all? and then add andre's on top of hers?."
--------------

Annie, the reason that I love Stef and Andre so much -- apparently they DO NOT have their hardware in their house! They are NOT egomaniacal as some other players have proven lately and other the years too. What a refreshing change. I bet the trophies in their home are limited to Jaden (and Jaz when/of she chooses to earn them).

Ros, as much as I love Steffi now, I do believe that had Monica not been stabbed, the GS count for Stef would "likely" have been altered. I mean come on, Mon was on a roll!

But then, what would have happened had Steffi's dad not run her over the emotional coals starting in 1990! If Stef had not had to play with her own German prosecutors trying to put HER in jail! If Stef had not had back, foot, wrist, knee -- hell name an injury and Stefanie Graf had it (and fought through it)!

What if's don't matter a bit. All we have is what HAPPENED. Everything else is fiction. What happened is that Graf has 22 GS! Just as Margaret Court has 24 (is it any more fair to judge Madge because her competitors didn't care to travel to Australia back when she was winning the AO year after year!?!).

Surely Monica would have at least contested a few of those titles, but then neither is it fair to Graf who had no part in what happened to Monica, and who DID go to those tournaments and contested them fair and square and came out the winner through her own dramas and effort.

A player is almost definitely going to serve more aces in a five-set match than a three-set match, which explains a) why a lot of the top seven acers lost their matches (since any five-set match is kind of a toss-up), and b) perhaps why Sampras isn't on that list. I'm guessing he wasn't pushed to five sets very often on grass or hard courts.

dollymix, that's a good point, Sampras not being pushed to 5 sets often. Still Pete wasn't exactly a Goran or a Karlovic who could serve over 30 aces on a whim, but his serve, particularly his 2nd, was more reliable, hence the GSOAT (Greatest Server of All Time) accolades.

The "lack of depth in women's tennis" argument doesn't withstand intellectual scrutiny. Or more precisely, you are telling the world you don't believe in the precept of capitalism.
No sport offers as much economic opportunity to female atheltes as does tennis. Only golf is even close. Tennis is also played on six continents, a truly global game.
Given the money involved and the worlwide reach of the game, it stands to reason that tennis attracts more of the elite-caliber female athletes than any other sport. More so than it attracts a similar number of elite-caliber male athletes. The men have a much wider variety of options.

On the Graf-Seles debate:

I caught a WTA match once with Navratilova very briefly talking about the stabbing of Seles. She said of the stabber:

That maniac singlehandedly changed the history of women's tennis.

NDMS, the lack of a serious rival (Seles) is why I put Martina a notch above Graf in the GOAT ladder.

I know the French don't actually like Rafa for some reason - probably because he's Spanish - but for the life of me I can't understand how he is put on court Suzanne Leglan tomorrow as the RG website indicates. If anybody has deserved to play every match on Phillipe Chartrier it is the world #1 and 4 time defending champ. Is this some website error or have the tournament organizers actually made such a blatant slap in the face to Rafa? That would have been like putting Fed on Court 1 at Wimby last year.

Dear Jerry,

The "market" ie capitalism doesn't always bring out the legend. Some of that is a matter of a moment in time. This ain't that moment -- whatever the market!

Need Pete Bodo to get reply from John McInroe
McInroe has been knocking Federer for the pastfew years with unexcuseable resentful comments. I know that McInroe dislikes Federer to all ends but he needs to keep his personal comments to himself and not be broadcasting them daily on the Tennis Channel. He was upset because he had left word to Federer that he had advice for him on how to beat Nadal and Federer answered with thanks but no thanks. McInroe all along, with his hateful comments has written Federer off and has no respect for him. Why would Federer turn around and ask McInroe for advice after that.

Need Pete Bodo to get reply from John McInroe
McInroe has been knocking Federer for the pastfew years with unexcuseable resentful comments. I know that McInroe dislikes Federer to all ends but he needs to keep his personal comments to himself and not be broadcasting them daily on the Tennis Channel. He was upset because he had left word to Federer that he had advice for him on how to beat Nadal and Federer answered with thanks but no thanks. McInroe all along, with his hateful comments has written Federer off and has no respect for him. Why would Federer turn around and ask McInroe for advice after that.

Hm, think Typepad ate my first comment...it probably deserved its fate, anyway. :)

Hey everyone. *waves*

Fun post all round...I like these notebooky type pieces.

I would LOVE to read the Gaudio-Coria book...but, Pete, why would you have to be Argentinian to write it?

also, strange about all those aces and yet being on the losing side...does anyone know why this this tends to be the case?

I think it's fair enough to put a caveat on Steffi's 22, but actively to reduce her record would not be fair - we don't actually know what would've happened without Monica's stabbing. And, rivalries can change.

Poor Keothavong - I'd thought she would be able to put up more a fight, she came in off that Warsaw semi-final and a career-high ranking of 48 - but I think skip has it right, and at least Safina treated her with respect as a possibly dangerous opponent. I liked Anne's attitude afterwards, what else could you do after something like that but laugh?

I may be nit picking, but I noticed that in the order of play for Wednesday, some who played on Monday are already playing again (Rafa, et.al.) while some who played Monday are not (Federer, Ivanovic, et. al.). What's up with that? Some get more recuperative time than others?
Somebody correct me?

calbearo:
I wondered the same thing myself about Rafa on the secondary court. As a matter of fact, I'm wondering why Rafa is playing tomorrow and Roger is not.
What's going on?

"Hail, even that other Olympic Games gold medalist from Switzerland, Marc Rosset, fell one double-fault short of a bid to top record-holder Anna Kournikova's mark of 31, and while Kournikova hit all of her double falults in a three-set match, Rosset had two extra sets to play with"

This truely an amazing stat for Kournikova but she is laughing all the way to the bank because she is the highest paid athlete that not only never won a slam but never won a WTA tournament.******

******But she got to number 8 in the world and the SF at Wimbledon and played double with Hingis.

calbearo/Mrs Tennis - there was a long discussion on the Crisis Centre thread, I think the last page of the original thread - about the scheduling and Rafa being on Lenglen - think the conclusion was that Fed and Rafa usually play one early round match on Lenglen as the organisers like to showcase French players early on.

And there was talk about the draw/recuperation time, too - look for Matt Zemek's posts.

i must be going slightly insane in my old age, i could have sworn labor day was the FIRST monday in september. :)

Pete thanks for another great post, glad you enjoyed Memorial Day celebrations. Also have fun in Paris.

Poor Kuzzy, I really would like her to win a GS but not at the expense of Dinara.

As for Keo I have never seen her played before but she didn't have any weapons and her serve was dreadful. Maybe she would be better at Thai kickboxing which is one of her hobbies.

jewell:
I see the discussion. Thanks.

Steffi not only have 22 grand slams but she had also 2 olympic gold and remember, she's the only player who got a golden slam 1988 with 4 grand slams and an olympic gold.

Comparing stabbing, which actually happened with “weak era” argument (which is purely speculative and a matter of opinion) demonstrates such a deep disdain for Federer and such dismissal of Monica, it makes me cringe.

I would ask all Nadal fans to imagine for a minute that today in the evening Nadal was stabbed or shot on his way from the car to the hotel. Or better yet the same thing happened last year. Federer proceeded to win French, win Wimbledon, US Open, Australian Open (say over Verdasco) and repeat in French this year. You, Nadal fans, would honestly tell me, that you would accept these victories without asterisk?

This is precisely the position Seles fans (myself included) were in 1993. Witnessing Steffi racking up those titles was incredibly painful, because it rang “undeserved” to them.

I wrote this and started to think about the Federer part. Come to think of it, if it was Federer’s fan, who hurt Nadal, I’m not sure that Federer could proceed to play French Open as if nothing happened. He could choose to withdraw. This is a speculation on my part, I don’t know him well enough, but in my view such decision would fit his profile.

Steffi for most part acted as if nothing happened, she accepted the gift of her fan.

Hi Pete,

Great post, just a nit -- you write, "and the season is symmetrically ended with Labor Day (the last Monday in September)" Labor Day is the First Monday in September. Have a great time in Paris!

mick1303: I honestly can't see how defending Federer's - or Graf's - record in reaching GS finals is disrespectful.

Meanwhile I completely get the emotional reaction that Seles fans went through after she was stabbed, because I was a Seles fan myself. Yes, it changed history. I'm saying Graf's Slam total would very probably have been lower had this not happened, but that Graf is still a great player.

I'm effectively saying that you don't dominate the field as Federer has and Graf did without a claim to greatness, but that the absolute number of Slams stacked up doesn't tell the whole story of a tennis player's career.

FYI, Chris Guccione did win and serve 50 aces in only 3 sets at Wimbledon in 2005, and Sampras should have made that list if he was supposedly the "Greatest Server of All Time" as someone claimed above. Also, Pete sampras having won so many more Slams and tournaments, therefore played much more matches/sets than the other big servers, but still only once passed the 1,000 aces in a season mark. He actually ranks last even behind Andy Roddick. Sorry, but I fail to see how that qualifies him as the "Greatest Server" when his second serve obviously did not generate that many aces, but simply put the ball back in play just like Roddick, or like Wilander could reliably do.

Goran Ivanisevic was the greatest server of all time as he makes it on both list, unlike Sampras, and not only holds the record for the most aces in a season, but also the 3rd, 4th and 5th. This means that he's the only server to have passed the mark of 1,000 aces in a season more than once (4 times total) even though he certainly played less match/sets each year than #1 Sampras. As a lefty, I was a fan of Goran's serve in the 90's and I can guarantee you that many of those aces were indeed 2nd serves.

Sampras was the best all around player of his generation and one of the greatest of all time, but the stats never backed him has the "Greatest Server of All Time". Even Roddick's serve is just as good. This claim, as usual, is nothing but a mystification from the American sports media simply because Sampras had a much better serve than all the #1 players before him. Sampras was a better player than Ivanisevic, but Goran was indeed the "Greatest Server of All Time" and his numbers are there to back it up without a doubt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATP_Tour_records

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanisevic

Sampras was a best server in a sense that it was very hard to break him. He had a second serve, which was actually attacking and very reliable. It allowed him to cruise in his return games and conserve mental and physical energy, once he got s break.
It was very real; no “mystification” from media was involved. You got broken against Sampras on grass or hard and you hear the bell of inevitability like now against Nadal on clay. I mean prime Sampras of 93-97.

Guccione played more service games in that match than Karlovic now.

It's interesting to see how people heap on the women's game when it is in a lull or a period of transition. Also interesting how people refrain from doing that when the men's game is in a period of lull or transition. It's as if people are in the closet doing push-ups waiting for a chance to slap the women - as in "that's what you get for being freaks" or "we always knew that you really can't sustain" - as if everything achieved during the great times was not. With men, there always seems to be this understanding of the inevitable ebb and flo that comes with an individual sport and an underlying support. That day never seems to come for the women - it's like anything great that's achieved is the exception that proves the rule.

Comparing getting stabbed with the weak era debate is oddly callous to me. In one case someone actually got you know stabbed. In the other it's a bunch of commentators making spurious arguments. It's apples and rocket launchers.

Watching Nadia Petrova losing is always a nice way to start the morning.

And now Masha proceeds to crap all over my nice day.

Myskina is also the other forgotten casualty of the 2004 RG. Maybe everyone should have skipped it that year.

MrsSanta! How nice to see you. . . I know this thread is probably dead with the tennis underway but two things - I corrected the error re. Labor Day (trust me, I know when it is; the US Open screws the holiday up for me every year!), and I think I need to post some revisionist thoughts on the Seles-Graf issue. . . maybe tomorrow. Today, I'm doing Roland Garros Death Watch (posting later).

Hey Pete! How goes it?

Could you make the Seles article impossibly flattering preferably comparing her to both Einstein and Usain Bolt and positioning her as the solution to global warming?

In terms of number of aces per match, Karlovic's aces per match (in the year he served the most aces) actually is better than Goran's in the years Goran topped the aces tally...and this does not take into account the service winners.

roger never dominated the field, there was always that one guy he couldn't dominate.

and tennis was changed with the seles stabbing, but steffi is still one of the all time greats. i was never a fan of hers, but you can't deny what she accomplished. winning all four in 88 and winning at least four of all the slams is unbelievable, regardless of what happened to seles.

roger never dominated the field, there was always that one guy he couldn't dominate.

and tennis was changed with the seles stabbing, but steffi is still one of the all time greats. i was never a fan of hers, but you can't deny what she accomplished. winning all four in 88 and winning at least four of all the slams is unbelievable, regardless of what happened to seles.

Much as I love Seles and Graf both, I still think Navratilova's career stats are the most impressive. And a great back story, too. Anyone else here remember her defection like it was last week?

Much as I love Seles and Graf both, I still think Navratilova's career stats are the most impressive. And a great back story, too. Anyone else here remember her defection like it was last week?

Mrs Santa wrote:

"Hey Pete! How goes it?

Could you make the Seles article impossibly flattering preferably comparing her to both Einstein and Usain Bolt and positioning her as the solution to global warming?"
-----------------
My biggest laugh of the day so far! As always, spot on, dear!

Rafa can make a great record ,he still young
& i hope that he does this because i realy respect
him.

Tina wrote:

"Much as I love Seles and Graf both, I still think Navratilova's career stats are the most impressive. And a great back story, too. Anyone else here remember her defection like it was last week?"
-------------

I remember the "defection" well because I wanted Martina N and ChrissieE to win the US Open doubles as they had won the Wimbie doubles that year. But Martina got her arse blown out by??? Who was it? I forget.

For me, if you consider BJK, Martina N, and Court's doubles/mixed record along with singles -- they are in the conversation for GOAT. But, like Rod Laver (!!!!!) I don't believe in the concept of GOAT. The only non-fiction conversation is how a player performed during their era against the players who were there before them.

Frankly, I add Chris Evert to the convo, because she had a hell of a good lineup of "legends" to contend with over her 17 years, and produced consistently - even on her so called worst surface -- grass -- she still made 10 Wimbledon finals!

And as some here know, I for one, do NOT downplay the former eras of the game as others do. I remember some legendary matches from back when I first started watching in the early 70's, and reading about others before then! Heck, I got nothing but kind words for Connolly and Pancho Gonzalez, Lenglen and Tilden. Who is to say that one of them isn't the GOAT!

Ariel wrote: 05/27/2009 @ 3:35 AM

"Steffi not only have 22 grand slams but she had also 2 olympic gold..."
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I know of the gold for singles in 1988, bronze for doubles same year, silver for runner up singles (to JCap) 1992. But what other gold does Stef have?

"Navratilova: That maniac singlehandedly changed the history of women's tennis"
Absolutely!

I liked Graf's game a lot - her forehand was the all-time greatest until Serena came around. Loved her quiet demeanour and coolness.

But tell me: Which natural multi-slammer champions had Graf faced?

Definitely Martina Navratilova was the ladies' GOAT.

Graf and Margaret Court were prime examples of Weak Era Champions. Court and Graf are number 1 and 2 in regards to Grand Slam Titles. Neither one of them had to contend with a great rivalry. What great champion did Graf ever have to play? One. Seles. And that one was aborted due to the horrific attack. Remember the 1993 Australian Open? Seles was relentless. Through out the match she had Graf scurrying from side to side. Seles possessed only half of Graf's athleticism and still managed to beat her. When seles returned to the game over 2 years later she was never the same. Gone was her killer instinct. I find it arrogant and presumptuous when others state that Graf would have gone on to win her 22 slams regardless of whether Seles was removed from the equation or not. Chris and Martina were old ladies well beyond their halcyon days when Graf began accumulating her slams in 1988. Grand Slam titles must be placed in a larger context. Chris and Martina's great rivalry prevented them from winning more than their 18 slams each. If either one of them had been taken out by a knife yielding lunatic the remaining player would have greatly benefited from the absence of their rival. And to argue against that would be just plain delusional. When your fiercest competitor is removed for you who is going to challenge you? Nothing but shallow victories will follow. Margaret Court is the all time Grand Slam Champion with 24 singles and 62 total. Does anyone seriously consider her the GOAT? Hardly. Court didn't have to contend with the likes of Chris/Martina/Graf/Seles. Court like Graf benifited tremendously from playing during an era when the competition was basically decimated.

That's the irony of the story.

What the crazy stabber really wanted, his ultimate goal - the indisputable glory of his idol - that's just what he ended to prevent, casting a permanent shadow on Graf's record.

That's the opposite of what we call poetic justice, I say.

No need to say that no one would like to be in Graf's role.

TW World

Seles' (sad) story brought me up that question: what were, in your opinion, the most disturbing episodes in tennis history? This turns out to be a personal question, as each of us responds to different emotions.

For example, my top three are:

1 - Seles stabbing
2 - Borg abandoning the game at 25
3 - The Coria's post-RG2004 story

I must say that, as Fed fan, the Federer's continually elusive RG title (along with the succesive trashing defeats to Nadal) is getting Federer into this top. Even today I can review the tearing of Federer in this year's final. Maybe I'm a touchy guy.

Anyway, I'd like to read your impressions about this.

(sorry for the confusing english - you should read this in previous comment)

"I must say that, as Fed fan, Federer's continually elusive RG title (along with the successive trashing defeats to Nadal) is getting TMF into this top. Even today I can review the crying scene in this year's AO final. Maybe I'm a touchy guy.

Anyway, I'd like to read your impressions about this."

The Evert/Navratilova rivalry is one of the most overrated things in all of sports. People look at the final standings, Martina--43, Chris--37, and falsely remember that this must have been some sort of epic back and forth series of battles.
In actuality, Evert won 20 out of the first 24 meetings. Then Martina posted a 39-17 record over the last 56 encounters. In short Evert dominated when Navratilova was out of shape, emotionally immature, and struggling to come to grips with both her sexual orientation and life in a new country. Once Martina got a handle on those issues she pretty much had her way with Chris, even winning 13 consecutive matches at one point.

Blaze at 5:42pm brought up Margaret Court and her 24 Grand Slam titles.

11 of the 24 were from her home tournament, the Australian Open (1960-66, 1969-71, 1973).

She dominated AO during those years when it was held at the most inconvenient time of the year(Christmas/New Year) and many of the best players skipped the competition.

One should add also that the act of stabbing is itself in a weird way an admission of the superiority of Seles. Apparently, the stabber thought he had to incapacitate Seles physically, so that Graf would be the queen. And one perhaps should not forget another thing: when Seles returned, Graf herself was opposed to reinstituting all of Monica's points, so she had to start from scratch going up the ranks, while Graf was reaping all the benefits of her top ranking. Does not found exactly fair to me.
And this is why there will be a permanent shadow on her achievement.
And for the life of me I cannot fathom this: you know that someone was stabbed because of you, and you feel no guilt about those titles you are now winning, so much so that you want to make it even harder for this victim?
I do not understand that and never will.

Plus, Navs is just in a class of her own.

Jerry1964 wrote: 05/27/2009 @ 10:07 PM

"The Evert/Navratilova rivalry is one of the most overrated things in all of sports."
----------------

Jerry, you're dead to me! Rest in peace.

NDMS wrote: 05/28/2009 @ 12:08 AM

Blaze at 5:42pm brought up Margaret Court and her 24 Grand Slam titles.

11 of the 24 were from her home tournament, the Australian Open (1960-66, 1969-71, 1973).

She dominated AO during those years when it was held at the most inconvenient time of the year(Christmas/New Year) and many of the best players skipped the competition.
-----------------

Not so fast! We count Stef's GS count knowing that Monica was winning (dare we say dominating) slams before being stabbed and taken out of the game -- outside of Wimbledon grass -- and SHE blames her demise at Wimbie 1992 on the powers that shut up her shriek -- thank Gawd they did...but I digress. Back on topic.

Monica was stabbed in the back purposely to help Graf get ahead (though no fault of Graf's). We say, Graf had to face who was in front of her and that's that. I agree.

So why NOT say the same of Madge Court?! She faced who was in front of her. She won in the circumstances that she faced. She's got 24 slams. CLEARLY, the woman is a legend regardless of slam counts.

Chris Evert was nearly the class of clay in the mid 70's, yet World Team Tennis got her banned from the French Open from 1976 - 1978! Three years! Surely, she would have won a title or two or three there. Yet, we still respect that Sue Barker won her title, and the others who triumphed in Chris' not being there too. They faced who they faced, and triumphed! Period.

Why shouldn't beating who is in front of you be enough!

I just read a comment about Madge Court facing a weak field! Ha, Ha, and double HA-HA!

Here's her match win loss record posted at the women's tennis forum against a field that includes 8 woman who held top 10 rankings (thanks to GeeTee):

LOSING RECORD
Chris Evert 4/10
Martina Navratilova 2/5
Laura Roussouw 0/1
Jeanie Evert 0/1

EQUAL RECORD
Beverley Rae 3/3
Rura Morrison 1/1

SUPERIOR RECORD
Lesley Turner 34/10
Billie-Jean King 19/9
Evonne Goolagong 16/6
Maria Bueno 17/6
Nancy Richey 15/5
Ann Jones 9/3
Mary Reitano 5/3
Darlene Hard 9/3
Judy Tegart 20/3
Rosie Casals 28/3
Jan Lehane 21/2
Lorraine Coghlan 4/2
Karen Hantze 4/2
Dianne Fromholtz 4/2
Christine Truman 13/2
Julie Heldman 16/2
Francoise Durr 20/2
Kerry Melville 25/2
Virgina Wade 27/2

Vera Sukova 2/1
Joyce Williams 2/1
(Marcie?) Louie 2/1
Joyce Williams 2/1
Terry Holladay 3/1
Wendy Turnbull 3/1
Vlasta Vopickova 4/1
Peaches Bartkowicz 5/1
Renee Schuurman 7/1
Patty Hogan 7/1
Betty Stove 8/1
Kerrie Harris 10/1
Gail Sherriff 11/1
Karen Krantczke 19/1

NEVER LOST TO
Robyn Ebbern 25/0
Lesley Hunt 17/0
Pat Walkden 16/0
Annette Van Zyl 16/0
Madonna Schacht 9/0
Helen Gourlay 9/0
Olga Morozova 7/0
Jill Blackman 6/0
Carole Caldwell 6/0
Yola Ramirez 5/0
Mary Hawton 5/0
Marg Hellyer 3/0
Suzie Kormoczy 3/0
Maureen Pratt 2/0
Sue Barker 2/0
Jill Starr 1/0
Sandra Reynolds 1/0

The woman is a legend. To build any other player up by tearing down a legend is disgraceful! Unfortunately the internet has bread a ton of disgraceful people with no respect for tennis or it's history or it's legendary warrior players -- men and women!