New, drug-free thread up.

Well done to Miss Krumm

Ana had a great win over Pavs too.

Colette, pfft. It just hasn't been tested yet. All the threads are juiced. :)

Sherlock Have you started cleaning your windows with Coka A Cola yet?

I think we need an investigation into juiced string.

Colette lol!

May I nominate Tennis Roids

The most obvious sign of guilt... "you dont have any proof"

Hmm just making minor adjustment to my moniker I forget the date you Amercians are a day late behind us Aussies.Which figures.

Like everyone knows about Coke A Cola.

actually in a court of law, not having any proof usually means you're innocent. Love the lynch mob mentality of some people here.

Again, I think it simply is not fair or useful for posters to come on this site and make statements like "tennis player A is obviously doping" or "there is a big problem with doping in tennis and someone needs to do something about it" WITHOUT adding at least some actual details about the problem.

In my previous neighborhood, I could say without question that there was a big problem with illegal, recreational drug use. I could then follow that statement with myriad details about the specific types of drugs that were being sold, the various ways they were being used and when, the effects of the drugs on the users, the negative side effects, the people who sold the drugs and the people who bought the drugs, if the people were local or from another town or county, the times of day and week when drug traffic in the neighborhood was the most prevalent, etc., etc., etc. I could go around the neighborhood any time of day or night and find all manner of needles, pipes, empty rock crack bags and other drug paraphernalia. I could go on for pages and pages and pages about the problem. I could find numerous other people in my neighborhood who could add even more information. Our community police officers could also give information about recent drug activity and arrests in the neighborhood, etc., etc., etc.

So when people say there is a big problem with doping in tennis or there is a big problem with a particular tennis player doping, I don't think it is too much to ask for these people to also provide similar details. If they can’t, then I have a hard time believing their assertion that there is actually a problem.

Obviously, there is quite a bit of information on the internet and in the press in general about athletes in other sports who dope and exactly how and why they do it.

Where is this same level of detail about tennis and doping? A lot of people seem to care about it. There are hundreds of thousands of tennis players and coaches and trainers who would theoretically have information about it. Sports reporters don't make much money, especially tennis reporters, and would kill for a breaking story about it.

If people in the position to know are afraid to tell what they know, this site and the internet in general are ideal places to tell because it can be done anonymously.

If doping in tennis or in a particular tennis player is a big problem, by now I would expect the internet to be FULL of descriptions of what substances tennis players these days are taking and for what purpose, what the effects are, when and how they take them, where they obtain the substances, how the substances are administered and by whom, what are the effects and side effects, which substances are better to get by drug tests, etc., etc., etc.

There would be descriptions of specific plausible scenarios where a tennis player would want to dope, with descriptions of the specific substance(s) and doping protocol that would be most advantageous to that particular player during a particular time frame, etc. Does that player need endurance? What substances and protocols are best for that? Does the player need strength? What substances are best for that? What substances are contra-indicated if a player is recovering from injury or illness?

There are many considerations for each individual tennis player and where he/she is in his/her career. Why would a top 500, a top 100, a top 10 tennis player need/want to dope? Is it a problem just in the lower ranks of players or is it also in the top ranks? A young top 500 player may want to take the risk of doping because he/she needs to develop physically and has nothing yet to lose is a test turns out positive. An older player at the end of his/her career may also have nothing much to lose and will dope. For top players like Roger, Rafa, Andy and Novak in their prime perhaps the risk becomes greater than the benefit to dope.

A reporter is not going to waste their time reporting on doping if it is primarily a problem among unknown low ranked players.

In any case, if it is a problem on any level, lots of information about the current practice of doping in tennis, both for the top players and the ones on the bottom, should be out by now. But the information seems not be there. Why?

Andy takes it 63 64.

Andy Roddick has just beaten Golubev - quite an entertaining, if rapid, match. Golubev had some sharp volleys and a nice 1hbh - wouldn't have minded if he'd won, though i'd like to see Andy get to London.

Other than discussing the "potential" drug issue, could we move actual tennis action and other topics to Pete's thread for today?

Good win for Andy

Heather will be pleased

Master Ace Good thinking Ahhh f/hands I see my specialty

Other thread actually has something of an interesting discussion item.

Mr Rick I have read your posts and I agree with everything you wrote.

Though for me I am going to move on.

Hmmm.

Late to the "party" but had a few thoughts...

Agreed that it's irresponsible to accuse someone of doping without having proof - and certainly a person's muscularity hardly constitutes proof.

Still, it's a little naive to think that the sole culprits are those struggling in the lower ranks, desperate to move up. We have our Wayne Odesniks, but we also have our Lance Armstrongs.

And I might be in the minority, but I tend to give quite a bit of weight to these comments from players. They're in the best position to understand what goes on on the tour, no? And if not them, then it's certainly not us. Rochus didn't go about communicating his thoughts in the most prudent/effective way, but I don't know that this means we should discount those thoughts. Same for Nestor or whoever else has spoken out about it.

Er, sorry for dredging this up again, to everyone who's moved on. :)

Miss Jackie

You like everyone else has a right to comment and share your thoughts

AM, if only I could do it in a timely fashion. :)

Miss Jackie

Another thought do you feel these lower ranked players could being having some "sour grape feelings" just my thoughts sometimes on things.

Good win for Andy! :)

Heather I was just saying you would be happy on one of my posts just above

Jackie, Annie: So where do we stand now? Is Nestor woefully ignorant or not? :D

AM, sure. There's really no way for us to know what's motivating these folks to speak out. I wouldn't be surprised if that were a huge part of it.

But the fact that it hasn't *just* been said one or two times, by some struggling mid-card guy (wrestling jargon always seeps in), makes it harder for me to only attribute the accusations to that.

That, and the fact that some of these accusations have been substantiated, at least in other sports ... where we see that a top, elite player/athlete is in fact guilty of it (Lance again, Marion Jones, etc.).

Er, my last comment didn't make much sense...

Arun! I'm the sole non-Canadian fan of Nestor, so I vote NAY. ;)

Jackie Point taken.We as fans only get information well lets say "in a second had way"

We really dont know what goes on.I suppose in ways we are just speckulating.

Though I always welcome any actual proof not "heresay" of course in any matter realating to all things important in our game.

Arun, it depends who he's accusing. :)

The thing I don't understand about the player comments is why say as much as they do and then stop? If you want to really change things, then go the Canseco route and name names. Otherwise, what's the point?

AM,
I agree with you. I just can't put not even a bit of weight on allegations made with absolutely no proof to back them up.

And that is not being defensive or ignoring the drug problem in tennis and in sports in general.

I would suggest for anyone interested to check out Steve's thread and in particular Hart's comments on the challenges of drug testing.

Arun Stop rocking the boat ok

Hmmm also lets not discuss cricket in any way shape or form

work Thanks.I love Harts take on things also studying to be a doctor weighs well.Hart also made great comments when Rafa had "edema" in his knees.I had the same thing in both legs and made comments though I was glad to hear Harts take on things at the time and she agreed with my thoughts.I am a specialised mid wife though I have trained on other areas.

Samantha, I was joking about Justine, I guess it came off wrong, like probably most of my posts LOL.

Hart's comments were great. The only bad thing is after reading that, it makes you realize how far there is to go. Realistically, is it even possible to have a truly clean sport of any kind anymore? I'm beginning to think not. Might as well make them legal and let the athletes roll the dice with their bodies as they see fit.

"Very good point...but couldn't this comment apply to almost all the discussions at Tennis World, if not the entire internet?"

Pierre you are right about my point. Basically I meant that this whole discussion is not pointless as there's a lot of interesting stuff just that the baseless accusations and unsubstantiated rumors are not worth discussing. Though I guess it makes for some entertainment lol.

Sherlock,
That's exactly what I thought.

Here we are (or some people are anyway) speculating about players doping because they are muscular, bald, acne prone, run like rabbits, you name it, and for all we know those who may least look or act the part may be the guilty ones.

I just don't think comments like Rochus' really help or add anything new.
I think most people believe and accept that there is drug use in tennis to varying degrees but unless someone can present clear proof how can we act as judges and juries of any player based solely on unsubstantiated accusations or physical appearance?

"Nadal called the revised rules “intolerable harassment.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/29/sports/tennis/29nadal.html

Why would this be so intolerable ?

I can assure everyone who has seen a photo of me Yes I still have Incredible Hair I dont take any peformance drugs.I built muscle the good old fashioned way through hard work at the gym.I havent the body type that easily builds muscle and thats a point most posters miss when they look at a players physique.

If they see a player with good muscle definition they think Ahhh he takes steriods etc.Blimey they forget their bodies are the type that can build muscle easy.

I wish people would take that important fact on board before that "point the finger"

I saw that, AM! Andy definitely needs these wins to qualify for London! Hopefully, he'll end the season strong. I have the day off from work tomorrow, I'm excited to be able to see some tennis!

AM: I promise. I don't want to discuss Cricket right now.
But Australia totally needs to hire a coach who can give them a crash-course on how to break the 9th wicket partnerships. :)

Arun Thats bloody cruel and you know it ok

They havent won a game on any bloody level since July

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Look I am desperate get Mr Cellphone back

I did mention I am Desperate!!!!!!!!!!!!

But see, if he'd named names, wouldn't that have been worse in some ways? Like, if I were in that position (not that I'm anything like Rochus), I wouldn't want to ruin someone's life or open myself up to getting sued or whatnot, but I might still want more attention to be given to what I deem a serious problem. How else would one do that?

Why am I defending Christophe Rochus again? ;)

And with y'all on Hart's comments. In the words of gauloises, I want to eat her brain. :)

Jackie, I totally get what you're saying. I've tried to put myself in his shoes and picture what action I would take. If the situation really is as he infers, I guess I would find some of my "clean" friends on the tour and see if they were interested in raising a bit of a collective stink about the issue. No naming names in that case, but definitely throw out some specific things they'd seen. If a bunch of guys do it in a coordinated effort, the media storm would be enormous. But when Christophe addresses the situation as he did, a lot of people just kind of blow it off. That's the part that baffles me, I guess. And maybe he just doesn't think or care that much about it. But if he did, I can't imagine he concluded that the best course of action to really get the ball rolling was a few comments such as those.

Sherlock, I hear ya. It does kinda come off as just petty, fruitless whining when it's done in this manner.

It's so weird, though, because when I first read it, my immediate reaction was, "GOOD FOR HIM!" And then when I realized that most others didn't agree with the sentiment, I worried that something was wrong with me. ;)

No, nothing wrong with you, Jax. :)

I'm all for players having the courage to come forward, so I do see that side of the situation. And if it really is prevalent, it certainly does take courage. The pressure to stay quiet and go along must be enormous.

Basically, I'm left feeling on the issue just as I did 2 days ago. I have no bloody idea, and it totally sucks not knowing. :)

Sherlock, no kidding.

And there's SOME stuff wrong with me, come on. I like wrestling. :)

While I'd hate to do any damage to this sport I so love, I'd actually really be interested in investigating this whole thing (assuming, y'know, I could just leave my job and go gallivanting off on this mission ;)).

Just checked out today's podcast. Good stuff, I thought - take a listen if you haven't yet.

"And there's SOME stuff wrong with me, come on. I like wrestling. :)"

Well, yeah, there is that, I guess. :)

But Mr. X loves you for it, so it can't be all bad. :)

Speaking of which, where has he been?

I think Pete needs to hire you for this mission. You can put on your deerstalker hat and sniff it out like my namesake. :)

Of course, the only real answer for any of this is for the researchers on the good side to get ahead of their opponents. Which, as Hart made very clear, means MASSIVE amounts of money. I wish I had a cool billion lying around. :)

OMG, Mr. X. Where IS he?! I miss him... :(

Stupid money. And stupid lack of integrity in sports. I love that instead of counting on people to just, y'know, NOT do it, we instead need billions of dollars to resolve this. *grumble*

Well I love the Tour De France lets face it drugs have ruined that sport

Though I watch it year after year.Though Though sad to say I now wonder who is taking drugs when the cyclists cross the final line.

Pity

Mr X who knows living in Minion Land he has probably gone walk a bout there somewhere

Easy to get lost in Minion Land I think

Just finished reading Harts comments.Phew some thinking I am now doing

Need to find some Coke A Cola no I am not cleaning windows at the moment.

I hear that grumble and raise you one.

At least when I was a kid, we knew that athletes were only popping amphetamines or snorting coke. Life was somehow better then. :)

I guess it's not just sport though, right? People everywhere do things to get ahead, even if it's illegal or offensive or unhealthy. Sigh.

What bad things you would or wouldn't do ... in the next Deuce Club. ;)

I think I will go to confession if I am to go to Deuce Club Post lol!

Nope, it's pretty much everywhere. Money, sex, power, fame...they make us do funny things. Though for me, money, power, and fame were never that tempting. Ahem. :)

*hands AM a Coke*

Hope you've recovered from Hart's post. :)

Not wanting to interrupt any private conversations, or what have you, but there's a half decent scrap going on in Basel between Nieminenineninen and Djokovic. 5-5 in set 2, Djokovic up a set.

Andrew,
Think TW has moved to the Hall of Mirrors to escape the "potential" drug issue

Sherlock Hmmmm pass me another Coke and I will see

It has certainly got me thinking deeper about things.

Andrew Thanks for the updated score.

HAHAHA, Sherlock! Naughty. ;)

AM, I was sort of joking on the topic idea, but now I think I wanna do it!

Master Ace Some posters are still discussing the drug issue on the new post by the way

I just raised the question I thought this post was about f/hands? lol!

Miss Jackie

Please make up your mind ok

My church only holds confession on some days

Aussiemarg,
Saw your question on the forehand thread but what do I know. LOL

AM, guess you'll just have to stop by and see... ;)

Andrew, agree really good second set. Now 2 all, 2nd set TB.

Hi, Sisu! Hope you're feeling better. :)

Sounds like a good match. Sadly, it's time to get some work done. Life is so unfair. :)

Hi Sherlock! Better day, thanks. Back to work for you! ;))

They're both fighting very hard, with Nieminen up 6/4 with 2 set points!!

Be well!

Later, Sherlock. Always good to chat. :)

Hey sisu! Both set points squandered...

And now Nole has match point. He looks sooo good. I think he likes this court! ;))

Hi Jackie! And Nole takes it - quite beautifully too. Happy for him. He looks really happy too. Nice to see him back.

Feel badly for Nieminen.

Djoko has just beaten Niemenen, he showed real firepower off both wings and remained focused ... which he needed to do as Jarkko also played very well. Some excellent tennis, probably the most competitive of the Basle matches i've seen today.

And in the battle of acne versus the unrealistically big muscles *wink wink*, Monfils defeats Wawrinka in Valencia.

"Still, it's a little naive to think that the sole culprits are those struggling in the lower ranks, desperate to move up. We have our Wayne Odesniks, but we also have our Lance Armstrongs.

And I might be in the minority, but I tend to give quite a bit of weight to these comments from players. They're in the best position to understand what goes on on the tour, no? And if not them, then it's certainly not us. Rochus didn't go about communicating his thoughts in the most prudent/effective way, but I don't know that this means we should discount those thoughts. Same for Nestor or whoever else has spoken out about it."

+1000

Thanks, ladyjulia. Everyone likes affirmation. ;)

Colette Wink,wink back

Good win for Gael and I hope he can keep this play up in the DC.Seeing Tsonga is gone for the season.Gilles and Gasquet will be competing for the 2nd singles spot.I am hoping that France can win the DC this year

Let's not forget Boris Becker also stated tennis has to clean up the doping that goes on, way back when!

wjr, maybe you are the one that has to be more *weak up* just in case you would get a big surprise........

I wonder if Rochus would be willing to elaborate, or is he done spewing venom?

This is a little bit off the subject, but I wonder if you gave several people PED's and several people a placebo, what the findings would be?

Jim Courier, Fabrice Santoro, Nathalie Tauziat, Nicolas Escude, Mardy Fish, Andrew Ilie, Mahesh Bhupati, John McEnroe, and Mardy Fish were not "spewing venom".

I'm sure if Tennis Roids saw me, he'd think I was using steroids, since I'm a woman who has muscles. In fact, a great number of people could look (and do look) like Sam Stosur or Rafa Nadal through the gym and diet alone. As someone who has seen MANY people who use steroids, it cracks me up to read about Nadal's "rippling muscles." Uh, no. That's not what serious anabolic steroid use looks like. Walk into a bodybuilding gym if you want to see "huge muscles"!

If you're going to have a serious discussion about PEDs in tennis, I think you have to talk about the drugs that are most likely being used: EPO, HGH, testosterone, clenbuterol, etcetera. These aren't drugs you "see" because someone happens to have bigger biceps. They're drugs any of the players might be using for endurance and recovery, which is probably where an elite tennis player could gain that tiny edge that makes the difference. (Strength alone doesn't seem that useful -- more muscular tennis players don't appear to do better; even Rafa's results improved when he leaned out a bit more).

My other comment is that I think tennis players and tennis fans really have to think about opening this can of worms, and what the result will be if "witch hunts" are started. PEDs are in all sports, but many have learned to look the other way. Cycling was ruined not so much by the drugs themselves -- which have a long and storied history in the grand tours -- but by an inadequate testing and litigation system that destroyed the lives of some while allowing others to do the same things and be lionized. The key thing, I think, is a level playing field. Either all the players are dirty or they're all clean. Unfortunately, the second is nearly impossible to achieve because with enough money, you can always stay one step ahead of the testing. Cycling, in trying to clean up the sport, has instead left the playing field more unfair (and less interesting) than ever. I worry what would happen if tennis goes down that road.

And this happens again and again....my post got deleted because I criticized Bodo too much. I have to say this is pretty annoying given the fact that I never swear or say anything close to what would be considered vulgar.
Basically I said that I wonder when Bodo's going to retire for the articles he's been producing recently are just simply bad. Pure writing, pure reasoning but above all totally partiality!
I guess this post will stay here until next morning for everybody in NY is asleep now.

For all the readers: read Tignor's blog, fantastic quality.

It shows the blatant ignorance of some people to actually believe that every performance enhancing drug will lead to bigger muscle.Bigger muscles are aided by anabolic steroids which will not help in stamina or endurance.It may help in body building.For sportsmen in endurance sports,it will not be of any help using anabolic steroids.It is erythripoietin or EPO based drugs which helps in endurance based sports.A sportsman taking EPO will look slim or normal,without any big muscles.So it is foolish to claim that every person who takes drugs should have big muscles.Actual culprit may escape suspicion by a layman just because he is slim or looking weak from outside.Other than that,some people maybe genetically predisposed to have bigger musculature.Baseless accusations on every good,successful,healthy and athletic individuals to drug abuse maybe just a reflection of envy on the part of disturbed ,jealous individuals.I think that it is best to ignore rantings by such disturbed individuals.We know from history,that in middle ages these kind of people burnt so many innocent people accusing them as witches without any proof.In civilized modern world a person is innocent until proven guilty.

Agree with writer who commented on barely any mention of Serena wiliams. If we are going to go with pure speculation on looks, I too would speculate about Serena as much as those who make such unfounded accusations agAinst Rafa. Is it because she is the only successful American woman on the planet consistently capable of bringing back a trophy we can call our own?

about recreational drugs..especially meth,as a regular user i can safely say that is is the one recreational drug that can definitely be performance enhancing
i mainly use it once a few months for sex parties as it absolutely amazing for sex,but the energy levels you get,the awareness and the confidence is unbelievable.the difference between crystal and other drugs like cocaine,extacy,ketamine,ghb etc is that you can actually do things on it,i.e go to work or live your life
the reason i say this is even after a comedown,i could go to the gym (after taking xanax to sleep) and run on the treadmill for an hour,at twice the speed i usually run at,get off and do it all over again without even thinking about it
i reckon you could win a slam on it,anyone who has taken meth before will know what i mean

(also a Nadal fan but not the same Lynne as Nadalite!)
I love your writing, Pete, and for putting this in perspective. I prefer to focus on the positive, until there is real evidence otherwise.